wesp5

I see the problem, that my patch can't add SHOW FROB OUTLINE to that page anymore, because it is filling the screen. Could some of these options at least be moved to the DIFFICULTY tab? Like the helper and aimer options for example...

So this would retroactively work with any TDM mission if we would find a way to get helmets from guards via a script?

I remember missions where the player can be in a tavern without anybody attacking him, so how is this set? Will all guards always attack the player or is there a variable that sets NPCs to hate/ignore/be friendly towards the player as in Bloodlines?

I love this idea, because I have already wondered for years how the guards know that you are a thief in the first place.

I would still argue that you use semantics to swap the physics and special actions for bodies, but I can live with that :)!

I would like to help betatesting too!

I don't like this idea. In reality you can move your eyes and your head, you don't need to move your whole body.

Oops. I experimented with "< ", but noticed it doesn't look as good for the default missions which I want to have at the top. Fixed!

For anybody who wants to test this in game, just install my latest patch to have a look!

I found a trick to sort the missions with "A" and "The" included and will probably update my patch to do so...

Congratulations from me too! But I just replayed the final version and it probably was one of the easiest missions I ever experienced. Because if you visit the tavern early on you now get both keys and the rest of the mission is a walk in the park! Why not have Cartier only appear there after reading the note in the theatre and modifying the latter so it says something along the lines "I will do some business in the town and then take my evening meal in the tavern afterwards." Then the players would be forced to enter the theatre to read the note, exit to the tavern to get the keys and then come back again. I believe it would make the short map more challenging! Oh, and it is intended that the drunk gets up again?

You can also search for a mission there. Only they are sorted with "A" and "The" in front, so the game should do it too!

In that case it would be very easy to check all "A" and "The" missions for the one you are looking for.

I completely agree and I think I asked multiple times for this! As far as I know the mission web site does sort it thus too.

Yeah, I think I made the mistake taking the whole long-frob instead of the delay. But as you explained it with the key-down key-up way, shouldn't stgatilov be able to replicate that in his version? Also isn't multi-loot already implemented that way?

Regardless of what is used in the end, I think we should move auto-loot to that too for everything to be consistent. Right now auto-loot is long-frob, bodies and lights are double-frob and consumables are frob+use! Rather an unintuitive mess.

If this is the case, I certainly didn't notice a 200 ms delay ;). Can you please do a test version of your setup with delayed long-frob instead of double-frob? This would be the perfect solution for me and snatcher, as it is consistent also to the current multi-frob. And maybe add the consumable long-frob eating for everything to fit together?

Am I correct in guessing that this could be done with scripting with no need to edit any missons or recompile?

In the original TDM there is no way to extinguish a candle without moving it so the new method is an improvement. Also if you managed to not move the candle with long-frob, stgatilov should be able to mimick that with double-frob too...

I played both test versions with "The Bakery Job" and as everybody could guess, I like stgatilov's version better because it is consistent. I don't see why daft's version should be more intuitive, especially as shouldering bodies and extinguishing lights are working in opposite ways. Still I believe that without a tutorial or key binding hint, no new players will discover either version on their own as double-frob and long-frob are not used elsewhere. stgatilov, is it possible to make both double-frob and long-frob work in your version? Also to really make this consistent, could you add eating food on double frob too, please?

I did something similar by improving the description of some of the key binding. Everybody is going over them and might pick up additional info about e.g. the use key. This is one reason why, escpecially if we can't agree on a frob behaviour, there should be an option button to switch it, which automatically will make people aware that the feature exists!

I don't think this would fix the problems of the current tutorial. Which for me is that it is just too boring and random, especially because you can select what section to do in what order! I can imagine player trying one or two and then abandoning the rest while missing information. Maybe we could add more tutorial-like situations and infos to the official campaign missions instead?

That is the way that Daft and Wellingtoncrab see it, but others like I guess Snatcher and myself see it differently. I believe that the primary and secondary actions should be consistent inside the gameworld and not be connected to subjective opinions on what players might use more often or what they might know from older games. Otherwise the candle light behaviour should be reversed as well, because probably more players want to extinguish a light than carry it around. And consumables should automatically be eaten. Right now it's a wild mix of actions with no coherent reasoning behind it! Also I just tested the dragging behaviour in thebigh's new training mission segment and it is indeed a chore. If there is a mission where this is needed for a longer period of time, as thebigh claims, players will be annoyed! And it will be the same if the light and consumables behaviour would be reverted as it should be by the essence you see behind the proposal. As for thebigh's new segment, it looks fine, but basically all the info was always available in the book of the blackjack room.

No, because 200 ms do not matter to me . Still, I don't really know if I understand the problem with dragging. Shouldn't long frob dragging lock onto the body once, or do you really need to press frob the whole time while you move a body?

Again, this could be fixed by reversing short frob and long frob for bodies. Is it really that much of a problem to hold frob 200 ms longer to shoulder a body?