Taffingtaffer

Displacement seems to have custom bottles, they default to the long green/brown wine bottles when smashed.

@FanOfTheDark might've already found the actual thread, but here it is. That's SeriousToni's mod

There's an edge case with the auto-search feature. It triggers on dragging bodies, when it should only work on shouldering. (Also, did it always work in two steps? It doesn't shoulder the body and pick up the loot at the same time; it first picks up the loot and then forces you to make another input to actually shoulder the body.) There are also issues with long-frob and switches. In Displacement, regardless of the frob control scheme, the radio in the first room and the oil lamp in the bathroom make noise on long-frob but don't turn off/on. When you let go of long-frob, they turn off/on without making the *click*. This isn't the case with the light switch of the lamp in the wall near the radio; it turns on/off on short-frob and after letting long-frob go, and the *click* plays when the action actually triggers. That's what I meant when I said this: ie. Regardless of the scheme, a rock can be grabbed on short-frob, dropped likewise; dropped when you long-frob and let go after you short-frobbed it; and grabbed as long as you long-frob it, then drop it when you let go. Fixed objects such as switches would act as the wall lamp in Displacement.

Uh oh, I just found an edge case of frob focus. Long-frobbing a locked door, or trying to slowly open a door further that's fully opened (assuming tdm_door_control (3) is used) hijacks the current unsheathed weapon (blackjack, sword and bow). You have to frob any other door that can be opened or you won't be able to use and sheathe your current weapon, or change to another one. It also happens if you don't have a selected weapon, or any weapon in your inventory. It isn't a big deal, I find the second point way more jarring: Basically assume you want to grab one-action objects with a short-frob in TDM-inverted mode and with a long-frob in TDM and Thief modes.

I did some testing in the Training Mission. Overall, the tdm_frob_control_style modes feel great, but there are a few rough edges in my view: Frob focus isolation is really well done. You won't accidentally grab an object while bulk-looting in TDM-inverted mode, eating an edible with long-frob keeps the focus on the object (now in your stomach!) until you let go of the input, and long-frobbing a door will also keep the focus on that specific door.> The nitpick I have with this is that long-frobbing the air keeps the focus on nothing, preventing you from interacting with anything until you reset the state. Changing the focus from nothing to the first thing you highlight would be nice, if it's feasible. Long-frob behaviour on one-action objects (junk items, eaten apples, extinguinshed lights) don't feel good in TDM and Thief modes; the same goes for short-frobbing them in TDM-inverted mode. I think making an exception for "consistency" here would make for smoother gameplay, but again I don't know if it's feasible. I'm suspecting this might intended, but big edibles take a bit longer to eat than small ones (bread, cheese or fish take like a full second versus apples, which are instantaneous). As for tdm_door_control, I agree that 3 is the most useful and clean of the bunch paired with the force-close mechanic. Mode 1 is quite cool, but the sound spam and rendering glitches need to be addressed. Mode 2 is practically useless, but it instantly made me think of snatcher's fast-opening mechanic in his TDM Modpack. Wouldn't it make sense to include a force-open mechanic if there's a force-close one now? :)

Even if it makes sense for it to be difficult, it doesn't feel very good in practice, in my opinion. I use forward-leaning constantly and the default distance reduces its usefulness; try shortening the gap while standing up and you'll bump against the AI back easily. It can also happen while crouching if the AI plays crouching animations. As for the other bit, I only see frob-fighting as a relevant factor; Auto Search bypasses the problem, and Frob helper can only help so much when the short distance and frob-fighting clash against each other. It's just that widening the frob distance improves the reliability of the frobbing for KOed AIs, even if the focus is still wonky. Sounds like a good idea for a small mod, in any case, making specific frob distances for KOed/dead AIs (if that's even possible). I was under the impression that the long cooldowns tempted Thief players to quickload in TDM (myself included). I have checked "Snowed Inn" values; they are indeed very short. Volta III are even shorter. This proves that even mappers feel the cooldowns are too long, though. I think my values were kind of a fluke because I didn't experiment too much to find my middle ground. I don't want AIs to be overly enthusiastic and go stomping loudly and yelling all the time, but getting surprised constantly doesn't add to the enjoyment. I'm also trying to play with a shorter tdm_ai_sightmax to balance out sight distance a bit, after @Wellingtoncrab told me about the variables. It's already in my autocommands as a commit.

OP updated with an overview of the changes and the links to the repository and the release.

Doesn't look like it. It indeed involves overriding the several distances in tdm_prop_items.def, tdm_prop_items_keys.def and tdm_prop_wearable_items.def. I was having a similar doubt with AI definitions. Looking at the EntityDef Tree, the base for humanoid footsteps is tdm_ai_humanoid.def. To make SqueakBoard available for all humanoids I'd have to add it there; then each female would need overrides for their specific shaders. Not sure if this will even be used in the future, but it feels good to understand the hierarchy.

The mod's name is gonna see a change, since the scope has shifted a bit more since the last post. Besides including the overrides I attached before, AI alert 3 & 4 is gonna get a dramatic duration and fuzzyness decrease from core values and barks are going to be more frequent: meaning, guards are going to chill out before you get the temptation of quickloading, and they're going to mutter and snore way more frequently to prove they are alive. DaftMugi also shared with me another override for pickpocketting frob distance values, to make them closed to Thief's. Ironically, it also brings consistency to the general frob distance; TDM has longer distances for any other object, except items carried by AI. I can already see the argument that the shorter distance makes pickpocketting more "tense". The way I see it is that bump detection isn't a fun mechanic during this action, and the distance is annoying even when the AI has been knocked-out. If you are already in a hurry to get away with the loot because you are illuminated and the guard could turn around, you don't want to also worry about bumping your head against their back because you forward-leaned. Alerting them while crouched in a poorly chosen hiding spot actually makes the bump mechanic interesting; gives you a chance of getting away if the area is dark enough, or punishes you for being overconfident if not. I'll be checking all AI footstep declarations to be throughout and the monster walking volumes, then then release version 1.0 in Codeberg for easy versioning and issue tracking. I'm a bit unsure about the license; TDM LICENSE.txt says everything is licensed under CC BY-NC-SA 3.0 "unless explicitly stated otherwise". TDM Modpack is Public Domain, on the other hand.

I believe we should remind ourselves that flashgrenades in TDM work exactly the same as Deadly Shadows. It seems like the team felt knockouts were too powerful in Thief 1-2 and nerfed both the blackjack and flashgrenades. TDM found a (improvable, as datiswous and other have said in the past) compromise with the blackjack, but copy-pasted TDS flashgrenades design. Searching and Agitated Searching states (Alert 3 and 4) have non-sensical durations, indeed. I've been tweaking their values locally in the file tdm_ai_base.def "alert_time3" "15" // was 25 "alert_time3_fuzzyness" "3" // was 8 "alert_time4" "30" // was 65 "alert_time4_fuzzyness" "5" // was 20 But even if you increased the blinded state duration and decreased alert times, you'd still have to wait for guards to calm down, as if you completely screwed up. And even if guards were at alert 3 or 4 when you blind them, does forbidding you a knockout for using a limited tool really add anything to the game flow? I think not. Definitely. TDM compromise is still too restrictive for restrictiveness sake. The rules don't specify which alert level counts as "alerted", what counts as "having their weapon out" (Alert 5? The state of raised awareness when they completely cooldown after Alert 4?), and the little differences between bare-headed, helmeted but bare-necked and full-helmeted guards makes the mechanic a PITA: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=The_Dark_Mod_Gameplay#Blackjacking @snatcher Classic Blackjack mod doesn't force you to remember obtuse requirements; civilians are free knockouts, guards (bare-headed or "necked") are always knockable from any direction including fleeing, except in Alert 5 (Combat); fully-helmeted guards can only be killed or gased. At most, TDM core could force knockouts from behind for guards in Alert 4, but that'd be the extent of complexity.

I'm guessing you refer to the one that actually squeaks and the heavy, crunchy one. Can't remember why I was convinced by them, perhaps I thought it added variety or felt the need to get the point across of really loud wood. I don't know any FM that actually uses it so couldn't test how annoying it sounds in proper context. After getting some distance from the mod, it does feel like they could get old fast. I haven't done any "in-field" testing yet. I'm on the look-out for beasts, undead and other fauna used in TDM. I don't think I've ever heard spiders walk or make idle sounds not that I'm eager to alert them either. I'm used to get unnerved by their hissing in Thief, I take it as a clear warning. Going back to sound propagation for a bit, Daft Mugi had a WIP to reduce the base values in tdm_propagated_sounds.def. I also took a brief look at the blackjack hit sounds: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6641 The issue speaks for itself. It doesn't make sense that hitting metal and wood has the same loudness. This is absolutely undercooked, to the point that you can't even use modifiers because it disables the shader for the blackjack. I've attached Daft Mugi's WIP (with default running and jump values, because I think they were fine) and a rather messy fix for the blackjack and sword problem. The edited footstep propagation values are intended for the "Forgiving" hearing difficulty level. They are an improvement over core values, imo. Running is punished in close quarters; crouch-running gives you an edge but can't be abused, which leads you to walking, and walking can slightly alert AIs when you go for a purse, so creeping gets a real use, even if for a brief moment. tdm_propagated_sounds.def tdm_weapon_blackjack.def tdm_weapon_shortsword.def

Thief 1 is not clean in the GOG release, they pre-installed TFix Lite 1.26 in their infinite wisdom... If you don't want to search for the latest retail version or get the Steam one somehow (you know what I mean), use this first: https://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/3529-thief-gold-unpatch-gog Then install RoguePatcher instead: https://github.com/JarrodDoyle/rogue-patcher/releases

Another revision, motivated by kingsal's comment. Did some file editing while I was at it. Now swimming feels cool, at last. Doing the squeakboard sounds, I had the tiniest urge to try and look for Twig sounds, but seeing how unkempt NPC sound definitions are (male NPCs don't play squeakboard despite having sound shaders, the same for females and broken glass...), I'll leave those endeavors in more capable hands.

Great. I've included both your footsteps version and Gin's inside the main .zip, so don't look for that folder anymore. ^^" Thanks for mentioning those sounds! Player .def file has a comment stating that the game needs specific sounds for entering, surfacing and being underwater. It was playing some lame "subtle splash" file for the first two, so I'll include your 3 files in all versions of the mod. I'm also thinking nobles having distinct footsteps can't hurt, either. Yours deserve to be included generally, too.

Version 0.9.1 uploaded. Forget what I said about Toni's water files being unbalanced, my mind is kind of in the gutter with all this modding. They are fine, but I did leave out the second jump file because the cut-off is very obvious when you immediately run/walk, as BoilerDunce pointed out. With this, I'll let the mod breathe for real. I haven't heard all of Ujtudor's non-footstep files in context, so don't hesitate to call me out for including the whole thing on a heartbeat.

Right, it's also very noticeable when you come to a halt depending on the file it was playing. Seems like an engine limitation for now. Sound direction isn't as solid as Dark Engine either, even with HRTF on.

I know that, that's why I mentioned squeaky board specifically. I certainly differ with the realism angle. Yes, of course Garrett or Corbin wouldn't wear boots with soles for tap dance realistically, but in a game with little to no UI elements you want to make very clear how dangerous surfaces are through sound. If you have to stretch reality a bit for gameplay purposes, so be it; it's a videogame. Not even the lightgem can be taken at face value in certain dark spots that aren't that dark, but we eat it up for fun. It's true that materials could have their own subsets of files depending on the walking speed, but finding good, clean free-licensed sounds with speed and stance variations isn't easy, and creating them less so. Doing this mod using what we have in the community is being hard enough, I'd rather not put more on my plate. Can you be more specific? Do you mean some files are in mono?

Another modpack uploaded to the "Experimental" folder. @Gin "Thiefier Sounds" are superb; if I hadn't started the mod with the premise of improving all core volume sounds, I would have included them as a replacement from the start. I created the usual guard and female versions as well. Regarding the rest of custom sounds: @Ujtudor edits to impact sounds make a lot of sense, and the balanced dirt and metal footsteps seem to sound better than the core files. I think I'll use their footsteps in the main mod; the metal files declipped by my pal JoseJL are unfortunately muffled in comparison... I've asked around in case someone knows of outright better, free-licensed metal (and water) footsteps. Toni's pack is an honest effort, but personally I don't find many footsteps exciting. Not to say there aren't good ones; TDM uses all of Toni's guard and female sounds, and the player's snow sounds. Player wood sounds also seem nice for the squeak board material, specially the walk-creep files. The water files need editing, though. This also happens with the core metal files to a less extent, but Toni's water footsteps have channel imbalance; the right speaker sounds louder than the left speaker. I'll look into both core metal files and Toni's water files.

I'm looking at @Gin Thiefier Sounds, since it's smaller to finish. These are top-notch quality, they should replace core files, in my opinion. Sadly, I can't use the source .wav files because core .sndshd files lookg for .oggs... I can't make addons like I intended either because if a .sndshd file wins, the shader declarations of that file are always applied. In this case my main mod is hijacking any duplicated shader needed by soundpacks...

Guess I will be betraying my own roadmap (not that I had one planned). I'll take my time with this one and make it an addon to load alongside the main mod, instead of putting the whole thing inside like the early Volta pack. Think I said it before but some of those made it to core, like the whole female folder and the snow footsteps.

@kingsal I've uploaded a quick version of my mod with your footsteps inside a "Experimental" folder in the OP link. Let me know what you think. I've had to use the Amplify effect of Tenacity in all of your files with a Peak amplitude of 0.0 dB (without allowing clipping). Also created a "new" carpet version for the guards by reducing the files' pitch by 20%; might also want one for commoner females with a +20% pitch instead. If you would rather prefer these modifications to be done with your raw sound files I'll delete the sound files and let you handle it properly. I just uploaded them to show how my shader values would sound. I've also noticed many of your missions have a player_swim_burst01/02/03.ogg set that sound a lot better than the core files, but the credit is still attributed to STiFU.

Great. I'm leaving player maxDistance properties in, since it doesn't hurt and you never know when you'll need to copy a similar declaration for NPCs. And maybe someday there's multiplayer support for a FM and it comes into play. Now, concerning mod load order... I've re-read stgatilov explanation several times. I'm doing a quick test with Hazard Pay to see if my mod wins, but no matter how my files are named, the mission files always win. I guess that's what "Recently I ensured that the files from missions take precedence over the core files" is supposed to do. This limits my ability to make FM patches for the mod, however...

Still don't see an increase or decrease in loudness for the AI if I change maxDistance. I'd say it makes some sense; something so important as sound propagation shouldn't be messed with in sound shaders. I may be dense, though! I could do that, but right now the three core .sndshd files are in such a state that you need the whole mod to make sure no declaration wins over mine. Besides that, sound files are all over the place. I would propose this for both sfx .pk4s: tdm_sound_sfx01.pk4 Move all player climbing files from sound/sfx/movement/footsteps in tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4 to a sound/sfx/movement/climbing folder here. Move all humanoid rustle files from sound/sfx/movement/footsteps in tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4 to sound/sfx/movement/rustles here. tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4 Move all used player footsteps in sound/sfx/movement/footsteps or sound/sfx/movement/footsteps/human to sound/sfx/movement/footsteps/player. (You would need file duplication for some files, since core player declarations currently shares many files with NPCs...) Move all used NPC footsteps in sound/sfx/movement/footsteps to sound/sfx/movement/footsteps/human. Check and delete unused variation files of materials (there are a lot). And of course, specify all player-exclusive shaders in tdm_player_thief.def I basically just went for 35 in most shares, so you weren't far off. I was under the impression that the jump land bug just plays the sound at the full volume you set it at in shader declarations. And if you could provide the latest iteration of your sound mod that would be great.

I'm glad, that means I didn't overdo it for now. I'd say core player walking stone volume vs. mine is pretty noticeable, if you feel like comparing that. Now at least you can say "ok, I did make some noise" when a guard mutters to himself. This shouldn't have changed. In fact, I've been doubting that part where you said the player shaders maxDistance affects propagation. See the wiki on both properties: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Setting_Up_Speakers#minDistance/_s_mindistance The value reported by tdm_spr_debug stays the same whether it's 30 or 1; it does affect the guard footstep traveling distance for your benefit, which results in this: It's kind of a game changer. I just finished "Special Delivery" and it comes very handy with a guard that patrols in circles in a room where he'll absolutely see you if you cross the doorway while he's walking towards it.

I've extracted and isolated all relevant files from those missions. They generally increase the volume of all shaders, although there are weird cases like Volta II where they state tdm_footstep_water_walk volume is "Volta-adjusted", but it's just the core volume -25. Maybe that wasn't the default in 2017... My mod increases that value to -12.5. Can that be considered a mission change by itself? Doesn't TDM Modpack retroactively change fan missions with its features? I'm not sure where the line should be drawn. I could leave shader values for the custom footsteps as-is specifically for the missions, just adapt my files to theirs, but it wouldn't make much sense for a global version. Honestly, I don't know how to approach this. Even TDM team would have to go mission by mission to purge tdm_sfx_movement.sndshd from existence if they merged my changes, or most of them. The only mission that focused on the custom sounds and put their shaders in an isolated .sndshd file is Sir Talbot's Collateral.