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oh and a little foresight would tell you that if you have large discreptencies between the time it takes a good and a poor player to lockpick would make a mission much easier for some than for others and generally give mappers huge headaches

well you obviously miss the point then. This is like saying that theres no problem with having a game based on hiding in the dark and having enemies that can see you in the dark as well. Obviously how you rationalise this will make a HUGE difference.. otherwise people are going to be frustrated. You should also check out some of the complaints people had against the Thief 3 lockpicking - it took them a long time to figure out that they could tilt it. They certainly didnt enjoy it as much as you did. And they have as much a right to play the game as you do, without being patronised. Simply, if its too complicated and counter intuitive, whats it doing there? Oh and thievery? The system fits in with the rest of the atmosphere of the game - but obviously such a system is NOT FINE for a single player experience such as the dark mod - so dont twist the comparison

Hey, I know were having trouble depicting to the player that these guys are nearly immortal without showing much armor, so maybe we could give them some badassly decked out metal gauntlets since its the only visible portion of their bodies. Accompanied by the hammers, I think some deadly looking steel gaunts would do the trick. I could draw up some concepts if the idea sounds good.

Hows this for an idea: How about if the player can choose between those 2 lightgems (obviously if he chooses not to have the compass) because both are quite spectacular.

We've discussed so many issues over the last 6 months, it's hard to be sure with out a search (and I can't be bothered) but I don't thionk we have decided yet. My personal opinion is that lockpicking is the most tedious of procedures in a game, and cannot be made interesting no matter what. It's only exciting to pick a door when there is a chance a guard is going to patrol past you at any second, so it creates a sense of urgency and tension. Having to pick a lock under any other circumstances by any means is utterly pointless and irritating, and the skill required to do it cannot be transfered to a game, wiht out making it a separate mini puzzle game (which everyione would despise even more) I think we should keep locked doors to a minimum (who locks internal doors anyway?) and only to areas with AI patrols. THe problems with having the hamds coming out, holding lockpicks like in T3, is that you have to have a 'suck in' animation to hold the player in the right position so the animaton lines up with the lock. No one here is a fan of sucking in. I always prefered to have to find keys to open important doors. Picling them always seemed too boring and easy asnd definite. I prefer the automatic door opening if you have the right key. Either that or you have to try every key you have, not having any idea which one it could be.

You don't get the point. Combating piracy is not the real goal. It is a sideeffect. It is getting control over the people and what they will accept what is important. If they accept Steam now, they will accept a small fee as well in the next step. And there are all kind of good reasons. "You do understand that operating the servers is cost intensive and if you want us to continue creating high profile games you need to pay a little bit. And after all one dollar per game is not THAT much? You can even get the big great offer to pay only 20 dollar per month and you can play your single player game as often as you like it. And for <just> 10 dollars more, you can even play the multiplayer games instead of paying the full price. Now isn't that an offer?"

And the joke is, steam doesn't work anyway. It was cracked just like everything else. I've never player HL2 and never will, so I don't care.

I think you should leave a bent arm in view (olol ghey), to show that it is being held back and didn't just disappear. Also the player might...forget that he's holding the BJ up...it would just look better, OK?

IF anything, it's too big, this isit in comparison wit the player arm. It's much bigger than the T1, 2 or 3 BJs. It's about the size of his forearm. THe strike is also fast enough IMO, it's just a blur as it is. Anyone else think it needs speeded up?

Ahhh, that would be great Dom. I already tweaked the tired time to be bang on with Thief 1 and 2. It settles in nicely at 12 seconds. Seems to be much longer in Thief 3 for some reason. Guess they were trying to make it easier on the player.

This is really a nice music. I could imagine it working very well with the credits screen or taking the player from the title screen to the game. Even though it has not such a strong climax, I don't think this is a problem, depending on how you use it. After all, there is a climax almost at the end, but since this is more a slow tune, the climax fits very well into the overall song.

Well, yes that's be ok. The animations wouldn't be hard. I was thinking of a nice cutsence or movie where you see a Prelate with a gurad who's done something wrong, and squashes him like a bug. Maybe he turns to the other two gape-mouthed builders there and says 'Now, I want YOU to find the thief, and NO MORE EXCUSES - Clear that mess away before you go' We want to get it into the minds of the player that these guys are not to bemessed with. It's all about bulding tension . Tension was what T2 was all about.

I've been refining my thoughts about these AI. I've decided they should be called Prelates, Grand Prelates or Architects. They are the highest ranking members of the church, extremely fanatical, even by the fanatical standards of the common builders, they are romoured to be in direct contact with the master builder himself. They are paladins, they are equally stong with either melee or magic. THey can divine the power of the master builder though their hammers to lauch magic bolts, and they can equally splatter you across the wall if you're fool enough to get within melee range. We have to emphisise how dangerous these guys are. Even the common builder guards are scared shitless of them, since they can kill them instantly if displeased with anything, and the builder guards know that anyone killed by these guys goes straight to hell. They are held in a mixture of extreme awe, respect and fear by the common builders, and we can reflect this in the dialogue. Obvuously, the player will hear aout these guys before they see them, so we have to make them very powerful so as not to dissapoint. I recommend that these Prelates can kill with one hit of either their hammers or their magic. Now, in an FPS, it would be ridiculous to have an enemy who could kill wioht one hit, but this is NOT an FPS, and you are NOT supposed to be fighting them, you are supposed to be straining your bollocks off to avoid them, since they are obviously so very fucking dangerous, and you WILL die instantly. I think this adds a lot of fear and tenson to the game to be near AI such as this. Obvioulsy we wouldn't want whole levels populated with them (well I would actually) I've also had the idea that when they are holding their hammers, it completes a magic circut in their bodies which shields them from harm, so you may be able to get a broadhead into them from a distance, but as soon as their hammers come out, you can't strike them again. Obviously, being paladins, they can self-heal.

What I mean is: If I turn the player shadow on, will the model I see as the shadow have those basic anims? my guess is yes (cos i think you'd have to make animations for the 3rd person thief model for it to have good anims in the shadow). --Dram

Not sure what you mean exactly, but Doom3 does already have a player shadow option.

I think Domarius was going to have it set to hold as long as you want. Not sure if he implemented this though. I just checked, it is currently set to stay raised as long as you hold the button down. Oh, I also updated the time allowed before the player arm gets tired and puts the bow down. I've committed it to CVS.

I was just wondering if we're allowing the player to hit the left mouse button when holding a blackjack to raise it into the strike position, and hold it there as long as he likes, until releasing the button brings the BJ down. Or is it going to be one action - you hit the LMB and the arm rasies and then strikes.

You guys are gonna add a sword only on the easiest difficulty level? You should just make it like the previous thief games(T1/T2 i mean). You could still use the sword on the hardest difficulty level which includes not killing anyone and the sword could be used as an act of defense(blocking an enemy's attack) maybe a last resort.A thief shouldnt be using the swords that guards use(longsword) so if you guys are gonna add a sword make it a shortsword in which the player can use to block. Just a suggestion By the way,are there going to stuff like zombies and mythical creatures in the previous thief games(obviously including TDS)? Will it take one more year to finish this mod? How is the mod progressing? Many thanks for your replies and GREATWORK!

If you don't like the sword idea, don't use it. Ever heard of not binding the key for it, or just practicing restraint. Obviously I hope you guys are leaning towards the combat design of Thief1/2, where as difficulty increased, the toughness of guards and general lack of your swords usefulness is reduced. I personally don't want a mod where a group of fanboys just up and decided to drastically alter Thiefs core mechanics because they thought I'd be cool, or more realistic, or some BS. To me removing the sword, or not giving us any melee weapon, is restricting player choice and diminishing game choices.

Lol, whenever I try to argue against woo, I get the relpy that 'this isn't medieval Earth, this is a different universe etc' and now you're trying to use the opposite argument 'yes, but back in those days thieves were treated as harshly as muderers, etc' We can make up what ever judicial and societal laws we like for this universe. Which would require greater swordsmanship than the guard you're fighting. To not only escape injury yourself against a better armoured opponent, but to be skillful enough not to deal him any fatal blows and just injure him enough so he'll quit. Not to mention the fact a lot of the guards will be better armed than you as well. So now you're suggesting our player have the skills of Zorro? THat's not a logical progression from what I was saying at all. This is a stealth game, sneaking and searching for the best way to avoid AI is the entire point, limiting stealth opportunities would be pointless. On the other hand, limiting murdering opportunities in a game that is not about murder, is exactly what we should be doing. You're confusing level design with game mechanics. Having limited numbers of paths in a map is bad level design, it's got nothing to do with gameplay decisions of what weaponry you're allowed to use. It's just like chess - there are an almost infinite number of paths you can take to win a game, yet there are very strict rules governing the gameplay.

Two things: First, oDDity, I see your point about breaking & entering vs armed robbery charges in modern times. However, as Renzatic said, the rule of law was not so good in the world we're talking about. If you got caught breaking in to an isolated noble's manor, guards could kill you without consequence, or said noble could just as easily have you tortured to death as turn you in to the authorities. Speaking of the authorities, in the Thief universe at least, they were not too kind to thieves. (anyone remember something like "thieves shall feast on the tongues of liars, who shall be fed the hands of thieves"). So even if you were turned over to the authorities, you'd probably end up tortured to death or worked to death in prison. Using a sword to defend yourself as a last option looks more promising than throwing yourself on the mercy of the guards and judicial system of that world. Also, you don't have to kill a guard to get away, just injure him enough so he decides to stop fighting you. Second, the thing that I liked most about the Thief series was multiple pathways. For example, several buildings had many points of entry. It was fun stalking around and trying to pick the best point of entry. So you had a lot of options, some worse than others (like the heavily guarded front door). I got satisfaction in knowing that I slunk around and found a good entrance point. Applying oDDity's logic about sword use to that situation, we might as well not make the front door frobbable right, because our thief character is so good that he'd never consider going in there. We might as well only make only one entrance point for the player, because the character would obviously know what the best one is right? Would I be as happy to find the entrance if it was just a linear map where I had to search for the one entrance that the mappers selected as the best one? No! That's linear gameplay. I like having choies, so that I can feel good about choosing the best entrance. The same thing applies to the sword. I get personal satisfaction from choosing never to draw it, or to throw it away at the start of a map. It's fun when it's your choice (and the game also rewards you by not having the AI come down on your ass when you kill and make a lot of noise). It's not fun when you have no choice.

I hate shooters. It's honorable that you feel so passionately about your style of gameplay oDDity, almost religious...in fact it kind of scares me, but it's silly to assume we should rap the player over the back of the hand until they play "exactly" the way you think they should. It's a game, not a dictatorship.

Our character wouldn't get caught, it's the player who get's caught. In essence, the sword is a crutch for incompetent players.

If as a player, you're good enough at stealth, you'll never have to use your sword in combat. If you do find yourself in combat, it's because you failed. When youi do fail and are cornered, if you're not even good enough to escape from the situation without resorting to the sword, then you should just let the guard kill you and start again, admitting your defeat.

You can't prepare for everything. Sometimes you have to improvise. Sometimes you have to improvise 6 inches of steel through someone's eye. By being 'good,' I meant of course you as a player had learned to make optimum use of your shortsword in combat.