Solis' Thread

[PinkDot]

I also like no 7. But IMO it still looks like you're stopping him in half way. His right hand with arm should go forward as far as it could and the hand should be fully straightened. He could even tilt his torso forward a bit (turning his head up a bit at the same time, so he would be still looking at the target).

 

Could you make a shot from player's perspective as well?

[Domarius]

If you are using reference material, then either it's not very clear or you could be playing more attention to it.

 

Well the latest one is lightyears ahead of the ones I looked at since my last post. But the overall coment I have to make is the same;

 

He's too jerky and stiff, none or very little effect of weight changing or secondary movement. Your whole body moves in response to a decent throw - his weight should go forward slightly over his whole body and his front leg should take the force of that and bend a bit. As part of that process, the position of his hips should change (not just the rotation), definetly be moving, forward and down, even just a bit.

 

And sometimes it can be good to throw in a little random subtle shake at the end of a movement. Nothing really ever slows down to a perfect stop (but obviously there is a cut-off point where you can get away with not animating this).

 

Most of the time, the whole body will be affected by a movement. Even though Doom3 can split animation channels, its still unnatural looking the way the imp scratches you as it runs - literally as if the top half is independant from the bottom. Of course in that particular example we can accept this level of un-realism (untill the day we have characters fully animated with physics alone), but this is the kind of path you should be thinking down.

So try and find ways to move as many parts of the body as you can.

[Solis]

The hips do actually move slightly, but I have to be careful about moving them too much farther or the legs will "snap" up into a straight position that ends up looking unnatural. Although from what I've seen of a person throwing an object with one leg behind them, their hips will go UPWARD and forward as they throw, which is what he did in the other animation (but since it was also turning, the pivot point of the hips is centered on the left leg joint). Since the person is supposed to be throwing it in front of him and upward (I'm also trying to make it so that tilting the upper body back doesn't make the throw look too odd, since he'll be throwing it at various degrees), his weight should follow the direction before slumping back.

 

But here's another tweak I had done about half-way after recieving your comments, I tried to make the hips move more but I'm having a hard time keeping the legs from moving in odd ways from the motion or making him bend in strange ways to keep the feet on the ground. I've had to make it look like he raises up to the front of his foot to cover up the way that it goes outside it's restraints when the hip moves forward, it isn't very noticable from the front though. I've also included a side view of the animation (I guess it's possible that the guards may end up throwing objects and something other than the player, in which case it would be seen from other angles).

 

Throw 8

 

Throw 8 - side

[Domarius]

I know you want to design it so it best looks good from above - but the side view seems to best get a feel for the movement that's happening when I want to work out why it doesn't look right to me. I think it's good that you include both.

 

I always step forward when I throw. To me it looks kinda contrived and akward the way he tries really hard to keep his center of mass stationary by not lurching forward. Like the throw is less effective as a result. He's not putting his back into it! Personally I'd add a touch of "baseball pitch" into this animation.

 

If the knees snap, just give them more slack in any way you can - raise the ankles so the ball of the foot is on the ground, move the hips down slightly, even float the feet if you have to (no one will notice) - you should be able to do a lot of small things to give the legs enough slack that the snapping doesn't occour. You have to emulate the fact that our bodies stretch when they move (even though this rock hard skeleton can't). You can even add more key frames to soften the movement so it's not so much of a snap. Don't let the snapping restrict you. It's an unnatural restriction, these meshs are just puppets, not actual simulations of humans. So do whatever you have to do to make it look beleivable.

[Springheel]

Looks quite good to me Solis. He's got enough force to do some damage. It's up to you how long you want to keep tweaking any individual animation--we have LOTS that we eventually want to include, so we're trying not to encourage perfectionist tendencies right now.

 

Would it be possible to get the md5 version so we can test it out in game?

[Solis]

Well I've been trying to keep him from looking TOO much like a baseball player. Unless he's throwing something extremely large or heavy or trying to throw it a REALLY long distance (I'm assuming he won't be trying to hit something more than 2 stories up or so), he should be able to keep his feet stationary while still giving it enough umpf to get it the distance. Like when a dad and son are throwing a baseball back and forth from about 20 feet apart, they keep their feet on the ground and just twist their upper body. I considered not having him move his one foot at all, but figured it would give a slightly better impression if he's going to be throwing it upwards if he does.

 

Aside from maybe fixing the leg snap, there's not a whole lot more I want to tweak on him (though the left arm still moves a bit ridgedly). I think it roughly matches up with the other animations for the mod that I've seen, and should look plenty convincing for what it's being used for. I think I'd prefer moving onto another animation for now if that's OK, a week isn't a very good turnaround time for a 3 second clip

 

Oh, and I'm not sure how to turn it into an MD5, I haven't seen any tutorials yet on how to go about converting Motionbuilder to Doom 3 formats. If I can look at a basic run-down I'll see what I can do, I'll need to learn how to convert it eventually anyway. Oh, and is there a way to set it so that his upper body will "track" the target vertically? Then the animation should make it look like he's throwing it at the player no matter what angle you're at.

[Domarius]

Like when a dad and son are throwing a baseball back and forth from about 20 feet apart, they keep their feet on the ground and just twist their upper body.

Yeah exactly. It's not very violent is it? Go outside and throw a rock at a tree like it cancelled your 4gig download at 99% and you want to put a hole in it. It's a totally different kind of throw than just getting the object to the target.

 

He's not playing catch with his son the Thief, he wants to bloody kill him if he can. It's like drawing. Keep the mood, and the motivation in mind, to get the fundamental feel of the thing happening.

 

Anyway I'm just giving feedback, not being the arbiter of what animations are satisfactory.

 

Oh, and I'm not sure how to turn it into an MD5, I haven't seen any tutorials yet on how to go about converting Motionbuilder to Doom 3 formats.

http://people.freenet.de/darkmod/exportModelsD3.pdf

http://www.facinghell.com/?cid=files (that's the MayaExport DLL for Maya 7 - so get a copy of Maya7)

The important parts are making a def file that contains an "export" section and a "model" section, then typing "exportModels modelname" in the Doom 3 console, then testing it with "testModel modelname" and "nextAnim".

[Springheel]

I think I'd prefer moving onto another animation for now if that's OK, a week isn't a very good turnaround time for a 3 second clip

 

Yep, I think it looks fine, and teaking it endlessly until it's perfect won't help us get through our long list.

 

Oh, and I'm not sure how to turn it into an MD5, I haven't seen any tutorials yet on how to go about

 

Hmm, that is an important part of the process. I don't know how to do it myself, though I though it was a simple exporting feature of Maya. Maybe not. Try this link: http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=741

 

 

 

Oh, and is there a way to set it so that his upper body will "track" the target vertically? Then the animation should make it look like he's throwing it at the player no matter what angle you're at.

 

Great question. Unfortunately I have no idea.

[Dram]

Just did a random search of "dark mod" in google.

 

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43341

 

Solis, you're Edge there right? Hehe, glad you chose to join

[Domarius]

Spring, the stuff I linked to is all he needs...

 

And the tracking question is for the programmers.

[Ishtvan]

About tilting toward the player: I'm not sure. I've seen that the D3 AI can have a "look joint" at their waist, but I'm not sure if this can tilt the whole body up and down or just twist it on the XY plane.

 

We probably shouldn't assume that the AI will be throwing upward, as it could also happen that the player jumps down some drop that the AI doesn't want to jump down and the AI is standing above the player throwing stuff at them. I think the animation still works in that context though.

[Springheel]

Yeah, we can make slightly differen versions later if we have time. But this will work fine in most cases. I'm eager to see this animation in game, so that I have some warning about the flying bottles that come at me from time to time.

[PinkDot]

the flying bottles that come at me from time to time.

Oh, yeah - those bottles! What are they? I mean, I know them but I never knew what were they supposed to be?! I was really puzzled when I saw bottle flying onto me for the first time!

[Dram]

Oh, yeah - those bottles! What are they? I mean, I know them but I never knew what were they supposed to be?! I was really puzzled when I saw bottle flying onto me for the first time!

 

If the AI can't get to you they start throwing stuff, thats the WIP lol

[Domarius]

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...amp;#entry78432

This thread has all the stuff you need, I finally uploaded it to our FTP - that needed doing ages ago, but I forgot about it.

[Solis]

Wow, I actually got it converted and working...well, sort of. Actually the model ended up being totally black and semi-transparent in the game, I'm guessing this is because I didn't assign the surfaces or anything to it. Also importing the animation to Maya caused a few problems, for some reason the sword is attached to the right hand instead of being on his side. But I'm just glad I got it working. Should I upload the MD5 file as it is or try to fix the textures first?

 

 

About tilting toward the player: I'm not sure. I've seen that the D3 AI can have a "look joint" at their waist, but I'm not sure if this can tilt the whole body up and down or just twist it on the XY plane.

 

We probably shouldn't assume that the AI will be throwing upward, as it could also happen that the player jumps down some drop that the AI doesn't want to jump down and the AI is standing above the player throwing stuff at them. I think the animation still works in that context though.

Well in Half-life, the soldiers and aliens had a pivot point at their chest that could be rotated based on the position of the target relative to them. Basically what they did was set a "high point" and a "low point" for looking up and down, and then based on the angle that the target was from them, it tilted their upper body a certain degree within those limits. I'm pretty sure it works mostly the same way in Doom 3, but obviously situations where they needed to use that feature weren't very common considering the setting of the game. I think the waist is a little low to have a pivot point for this, it would look like the character is leaning forward or backward too much. But anyway, that should be a pretty minor thing and is something that will probably be added later.

 

And yeah, I just thought about how the AI might be throwing something downward as well. I think I'll do some tests twisting the torso a little ways and seeing how the animation looks when he's throwing both upwards and downwards. It looked fine when he did it upwards on an earlier version of the animation, so I think it shouldn't be a problem.

 

Just did a random search of "dark mod" in google.

 

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43341

 

Solis, you're Edge there right? Hehe, glad you chose to join

Haha, yup, that's me. NewHorizon actually contacted me on the forum after seeing that post of mine and asked if I'd be interested in joining, and eventually it came to this. I must say I'm somewhat flattered that he signed up for the forum just to send me a PM asking if I'd like to help, he must've really thought a lot of my enthusiasm...or you guys are just desperate for animators

[Dram]

...he must've really thought a lot of my enthusiasm...or you guys are just desperate for animators

 

[Domarius]

I must say I'm somewhat flattered that he signed up for the forum just to send me a PM asking if I'd like to help, he must've really thought a lot of my enthusiasm...or you guys are just desperate for animators

I'm sure you were enthusiastic - but it was definetly the latter

[Springheel]

Should I upload the MD5 file as it is or try to fix the textures first?

 

I'm pretty sure the textures will show up once we put the file into the right folder structure. The sword might be a bigger problem, since that would be in the hand he was using for throwing, right? Not too sure why that happened. Were you using any of the attack/searching animations as a base? The sword would be in hand for those, though you'd probably be able to see that.

[Solis]

The sword-on-hand problem happened when I loaded the Motionbuilder animation in Maya, and yes it's on his throwing arm. I think the arm is being made the sword's parent for some reason, it could be in part because I used the pose from the sword drawing animation. But I'm not sure exactly how to adjust the animations in Maya or change the sword's parent.

[Domarius]

No, the texures don't show up without manual editing of the .md5mesh file in a text editor to point each object to the correct shader (in a .mtr file), which, if they don't exist, have to also be created.

 

Yes the sword is parented to the hand because you used the sword drawing animation. Look at the Motion Builder tutorial video made by oDDity to find out how to change this.

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showtopic=3563

(If the info isn't in there then I will have to track it down when I get home.)

[Springheel]

Any luck with this, Solis? Do you have the relevant texture files that you need?

[Solis]

Well, I still haven't figured out a way to fix the sword parenting problem. I can detach the sword entirely as a child, but when it's imported to Maya it it's still connected to the arm. I don't quite understand how Maya handles animation yet, I tried disconnecting the sword from the model in it but in Doom 3 it still showed it on his arm. So right now I'm a bit confused on that part, I suppose I could send the Motionbuilder file to someone if they knew how to fix that part if I need to.

 

I haven't looked at the textures much though, I don't have the def or shader files for the guard, just the jpegs that motionbuilder creates. I'm not sure how I'd go about turning those into texture/bump maps and editing a shader file for them, or what file structure is used for it. Doom 3 is still a bit foreign to me.

 

Also I noticed that we might be changing the rigs on our models a bit to make an origin bone for Doom 3, so I've been waiting to see how that goes. Otherwise I can start making more animations whenever we want.

[Domarius]

Well you're stuck at the same point I am with that then I am not bothering with it, because we'll be deleting the sword from the anim anyway, and attching it in real time in the game.

[Solis]

That's good, I actually like the idea of the sword being an entity on the object since that gives a lot more options as far as detaching it and such (it would be nice if the enemies could be disarmed or use other weapons than what they're carrying it). Should we just keep using it in the animations themselves as a guide so that it matches up correctly in the game? If so we'd have to be careful about having it held by the in-game model at exactly the same coordinates as the animation is.