Remaining Player Melee Attacks

[Flanders]

Just uploaded two new animations, the thrust and the slash_r2l. The thrust is the same as before but without the circling of the sword. I slightly adjusted the rotation on the joints and now the clipping is gone as far as I can see it . On the other hand the sting looks pretty dull now that it's just straight forward and straight back.

[Ishtvan]

Okay, I updated the melee physics. The animations work very well now. My only complaint is that the left and right slashes swing back to a point that's off the screen. I again let them come forward a bit after the backswing before they pause, to a point where you can see them on the screen. But it would be better if the animation only went this far with the back swing rather than all the way off the screen.

 

I agree keeping the same number of frames for all the animations is good. For the side-side attacks, that means the backswing may have to be slightly slower velocity-wise if we don't want it to go as far off-screen. That's fine though, that would be consistent with the hack and the thrust, which stay on screen and pause at about the same time. The attacks all end up pausing around frame 12 or 13. So if the back-swing for the horizontal slashes could take them back only as far as the point where I now have them paused, but still do it at around frame 12 or 13, that would be good.

 

Other than that, the left to right slash now has less range than the new right to left, because the blade doesn't extend out as straight. It also hits at a different vertical level because the blade is tilted more diagonally in the left to right slash, but that's probably okay.

 

There's a weird artifact with the new right to left swing. The entire mesh flickers out of existence for a moment, about one second into the animation (you can see this if you hold the attack button, pausing at the back-swing). Does this happen to other people? I tried turning the lightgem off in case it was another of my ATI/lightgem artifacts, but it still flickered. Is there anything different about this animation that's not in the others?

 

On the other hand the sting looks pretty dull now that it's just straight forward and straight back.

I'd say it looks like someone who knows how to use a sword efficiently. If you want to do something more dramatic on the recovery that's fine, the tip could circle out a bit or something, but it should come back by the time the wrist is all the way in the original positoin. The original circle looked weird because the sword-hand came all the back to the starting position, then made a little circle. I think if the sword is going to veer off a bit, it looks more believable to do it during the pull-back part of the recovery, but then be fully recovered by the time the sword is all the way back.

[Flanders]

Okay, I updated the melee physics. The animations work very well now. My only complaint is that the left and right slashes swing back to a point that's off the screen. I again let them come forward a bit after the backswing before they pause, to a point where you can see them on the screen. But it would be better if the animation only went this far with the back swing rather than all the way off the screen.

With the r2l slash there is a small piece of the arm on the screen if it's paused at the right time, I can adjust that so that a larger piece is showing.

For the l2r slash: I thought that the arm was clearly in sight on the bottom of the screen when it's paused .

 

Other than that, the left to right slash now has less range than the new right to left, because the blade doesn't extend out as straight. It also hits at a different vertical level because the blade is tilted more diagonally in the left to right slash, but that's probably okay.

Confirmed, the difference in extension is about 10%. The l2r slash looks good IMO, I don't want to change it except for making the extension match the r2l slash.

 

There's a weird artifact with the new right to left swing. The entire mesh flickers out of existence for a moment, about one second into the animation (you can see this if you hold the attack button, pausing at the back-swing). Does this happen to other people? I tried turning the lightgem off in case it was another of my ATI/lightgem artifacts, but it still flickered. Is there anything different about this animation that's not in the others?

Funny, it's when the animation is paused so it's not that there is a frame missing I guess. Maybe it'll disappear if I change the animation.

 

I'd say it looks like someone who knows how to use a sword efficiently. If you want to do something more dramatic on the recovery that's fine, the tip could circle out a bit or something, but it should come back by the time the wrist is all the way in the original positoin. The original circle looked weird because the sword-hand came all the back to the starting position, then made a little circle. I think if the sword is going to veer off a bit, it looks more believable to do it during the pull-back part of the recovery, but then be fully recovered by the time the sword is all the way back.

Consider that one finished then, finally. Maybe it looks more 'dramatic' if the sword is pulled back closer to the players face so you'll have a close up of the sword tip but I don't think it's wise to go there. This particular animation was difficult enough as it is now.

[Ishtvan]

With the r2l slash there is a small piece of the arm on the screen if it's paused at the right time, I can adjust that so that a larger piece is showing.

For the l2r slash: I thought that the arm was clearly in sight on the bottom of the screen when it's paused .

Yes, the sword does appear on the screen when paused right now. But I meant to say that I had to choose these pause frames intentionally late in the animation, such that the blade is already swinging forward when it's paused. That ends up looking weird/disconinuous: The blade smoothly goes to a point off screen, then swings forward quickly a tiny bit and stops all of a sudden at a point onscreen. I think it would be much better if the backswing animation never goes off the screen, like the thrust and the overhead slash. Then I can pause it at the natural place in the animation (after back swing, just before forward swing).

 

The timing of the pause point right now is good (frame 12 or 13, consistent with thrust and overhead). So what I'm asking is: Can the back-swing swing back to a point that still lets you see a small bit of the sword/hand on screen, and transition to the forward swing right at frame 12 or 13?

 

Confirmed, the difference in extension is about 10%. The l2r slash looks good IMO, I don't want to change it except for making the extension match the r2l slash.

Yeah, that sounds good. We can get by with a vertical tilt that's different than the other horizontal slash. It will probably make it more interesting.

 

Funny, it's when the animation is paused so it's not that there is a frame missing I guess. Maybe it'll disappear if I change the animation.

Yeah it's weird, it always happens a set time after the animation starts. It is linked to the game clock because if I slow down time with g_timescale, the point at which it flickers scales along with that.

 

Consider that one finished then, finally. Maybe it looks more 'dramatic' if the sword is pulled back closer to the players face so you'll have a close up of the sword tip but I don't think it's wise to go there. This particular animation was difficult enough as it is now.

Yeah, I think it's fine. It could be tricky trying to aim with it if it gets too close to your face. I think Mount & Blade did kind of an "overhand" stab to look more dramatic, but to me that looks silly.

[Flanders]

I can't get the flicker out of the animation, does anyone have an idea what can cause it? I tried the same attack with a different animation and there was no flicker, so the only thing I can think of is to redo the whole animation what I don't want.

[Flanders]

I uploaded a new l2r and r2l attack animation. I hope they are final now and don't need changing.

@ Ishtvan: the ideal pause times for the attacks is 12 frames for the thrust and 11 for the other attacks.

[Ishtvan]

Okay, thanks. Sounds like we're done. I'll check them out when I next get some time.

[Flanders]

tdm_weapon_shortsword.def still doesn't use the correct times for the pauses, so I'm gonna commit it with these values if no one complaints:

 

anim attack_LR		models/md5/weapons/broadsword/slash_l2r.md5anim
 {
	 frame 11	melee_hold
	 frame 12	sound snd_swing
	 frame 12	melee_attack_start meleeweap_r slash_lr
	 frame 20	melee_attack_stop meleeweap_r
 }
 anim attack_RL	models/md5/weapons/broadsword/slash_r2l.md5anim
 {
	 frame 11	 melee_hold
	 frame 12	sound snd_swing
	 frame 12	melee_attack_start meleeweap_r slash_rl
	 frame 20	melee_attack_stop meleeweap_r
 }
 anim attack_Over	models/md5/weapons/broadsword/slash_overhead.md5anim
 {
	 frame 11	melee_hold
	 frame 12	sound snd_swing
	 frame 12	melee_attack_start meleeweap_r overhead
	 frame 21	melee_attack_stop meleeweap_r	
 }
 anim attack_Thrust models/md5/weapons/broadsword/thrust.md5anim
 {
	 frame 11	melee_hold
	 frame 12	sound snd_swing
	 frame 12	melee_attack_start meleeweap_r thrust
	 frame 21	melee_attack_stop meleeweap_r
 }

[Ishtvan]

Wait, I thought we talked about this, and I set those pauses so you could actually see the sword on the player camera when you're holding the backswing. When the animation reaches the backswing position (a little earlier than the current pauses), the sword is completely off the camera, which is not good. I put in the pauses after the swing had started forward slightly in order to get good held positions on the camera.

 

I agree it doesn't look nice, because the sword is smoothly swinging back, then sort of jumping forward then stopping. If the animation could swing back only to those positions where the current pause is and then stop (not swing further), that would be best. I requested this when we last talked about it, and I thought it was acknowledged but "good enough" for now. But I don't think we should pause it with the sword off the camera, or the hand blocking most of the camera or some awkward pose like that. Have you tried out your proposed pause frames ingame?

 

[EDIT: Okay re-reading this thread, did the animations change since we talked about the pausing being off camera? If so, sorry, guess I never got time to look at them. If the sword is held on camera and aiming with it is easy, then yeah go ahead and commit it.]

[Flanders]

Wow, I took that into account long ago. Those new values are fine, the sword stays on screen.

[Ishtvan]

Okay, cool, guess I forgot to check them, been working mostly with the 3rd person animations. Go ahead and commit then.

[Ishtvan]

The overhead attack is perfect. The new held positions for the side to side attacks are not as easy to aim with anymore. In the right to left slash, I can see the very bottom of the pommel of the sword, so can sort of use that to aim, if I add a mental vertical offset, but it was easier before when I could still see the "T" part of the hand guard, so you could see what level the blade would be coming across at. In the left to right slash, I can only see my forearm in front of me, can't see any part of the sword. So pretty much have to go back to aiming with the center of the screen on that one.

 

Not sure how much this matters, but just wanted to let you know. AI with plate armor and helmets need to be slashed right in the face to do damage, so being able to aim the side to side slashes vertically becomes important.

[Dram]

Just for the record guys, checkoud out the combat yesterday...pro. Seriously guys it is awesome

 

Am I to presume the speed of the guard attacks will increase via difficulty?

[Flanders]

No problems with aiming for the side attacks? I think it just takes a little practice now before you know what the sword arc is for the side attacks.

[Ishtvan]

Yeah it is a subjective thing. Maybe it's easy enough to aim without seeing a lot of the sword and just using the center of the screen, I don't know. I just know it got a little harder without seeing something you can reference as the height of the swing. I would prefer to see this rather than estimate using the center of the screen, but maybe it's still okay, only testing can tell.

[Crispy]

Using first-person anims to help aiming is a tried and tested technique. I think someone mentioned on these forums a while back some game where you could use your avatar's left hand to help you aim grenades thrown with its right hand; it would basically point at the location where the grenade would impact. So if that can be done without too much issue then all the better.

 

^ However, I say the above not having tried combat recently, so take with a grain of salt.

[Ishtvan]

Okay, cancelling attacks implemented. This also allows feint attacks, I'll post about that in the main thread.