peter_spy

On second thought, maybe it will be better to do both. First, let's have enough generic presets for people who just want to put these in a map and be done.

Yeah, I'm a math dummy, I was trying to convert these values as if ranges were linear And I think they changed ranges in white to more sensible scales in later versions. Range from -100 db to 0, +10, or +20 db isn't terribly useful. I mean, on a scale from 0 to -100 db, you'll won't hear much (or anything) beyond -60, -70 db (typically, this is the self-noise floor for microphones). Since we're talking about volume of reflections and reverberation, it's safe to assume you won't hear anything beyond -50 db, because of the foreground sound sources. Besides, values like room, reverb, and reflections (gain) need to be adjusted manually anyway, either to a specific map, or just because TDM sounds seem a bit louder than in other games. Also TDM default EFX settings are not exactly "neutral". I'd say it's something close to a "medium dead room", so you have to take that into account as well. I'm not sayin these presets are useless. But, I'm trying to create something more like "EFX for dummies" guide, not "here, use these presets". Maybe like a question system, e.g.: 1) how big is your room? Use X for small rooms, Y for medium rooms, and Z for large rooms, etc. So people can take these values and understand (roughly) what they do, and they won't have problems with changing them later.

Using guide provided by Stgatilov and presets found by Xircspheroth, I made a comparison of values used in Open AL docs and in our documentation. If we take out orange ones, which are incompatible, and blue ones which share the same range, we end up with 6 parameters that need conversion from one range to another. Could have been worse

This will be helpful, thanks! Some of the ranges will be different, but I could try and use these to create presets for TDM.

http://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=4690 Thank you! Will it be available as part of public beta as well? It will speed up my research on EFX parameters and help us make EFX file for Biker's Elixir map.

Correction, it works, but something is different. It depends on material, but sometimes it's really subtle, like barely noticeable. I think it's also a bit more contrasty. Previous version was more like TES: Oblivion kind of Bloom, 2.06 is different.

I must be one lucky bastard, because on my system it runs like a charm on both 2.05 and 2.06. The only problems I encountered are beta related, like sound cut-off, or bloom not working.

Actually that Effect Extension Guide proved to be very useful. I went through most values in the Appendix on page 120 and further. Despite some differences in names ("room" is basically "gain" and value ranges can be a bit different), everything seems to be correct. Some values, like Reverb density, were probably added in Version 2 or later, so they don't work. Still, even stuff listed in .efx definitions on our Wiki page as "undocumented", like "echo depth" or "echo time" – they actually work. Some of these values just need to be grouped and adjusted together so you can hear the difference. Now I'll need some time to wrap my head around this, and try to decide which of these parameters should be treated as primary and secondary, as it gets complicated pretty quick.

Thanks for the info, stgatilov! This guide might be helpful. Also, I've been watching a few Twitch livestreams by proffessonal audio engineers amd musicans on how to use Delay and Reverb. Since our EFX parameters are similar to Audition's Reverb plugin, it should help me understand which values do what, how they affect each other etc. Then I want to establish a clear workflow, so everyone will know what they're doing. Yes! I almost jumped with joy when I saw that entry resolved in the bug tracker! Please, please, please include this in final 2.06 release! You'll save us hours of tedious work, seriously.

One thing I just noticed: in Volta II, if you press Esc and go to the menu during player character VO, when you get back to the game, the VO gets interrupted. It doesn't matter whether EFX is enabled or disabled. And it also happens during AI conversations. It doesn't happen in 2.05, I checked. Edit: you can reproduce this error by playing A New Job and interrupting player VO at the beginning of the mission.

+1 I'm not yet competent to talk about technical side of things, since I barely touched sounds in my WIP map, but just in terms of a reference, this is how it's done elsewhere. This is Dishonored 2 Audio menu. Master and Video sliders do the obvious. Music affects menu music and mission background music (i.e. the one played through our equivalent of location system, and not placed in a speaker in the map). SFX slider affects all UI and menu sounds, player footstep sounds, and basically all sounds placed in the map. Speech affects internal monologue, voices of AIs placed in the map, and player grunts. It sounds like a ton of work, but if we could modify our system to have something more similar to this, I think it would be more clear for both players and mappers.

I was trying to keep things too simple, my mistake. Although it's funny how you can focus on subtle differences in meaning or phrasing, while more often than not, every time you post, you sound like a passive-aggressive ass. You just can't help yourself, even when giving advice to others. You keep saying that people here ignore you or don't like you, and most people are too polite to say why. So, here you have it, your self-fullfilling prophecy. With that out of the way, I think the most viable workflow would be to stick to one version, and then try to release a mission as a standalone package, with .exe and the root files. (Does CC license allow this?) To keep the size low, you'd probably need to keep track of assets you use, and then delete all the unused packages. I've never tried it, but if it's possible to unzip all the core .pk4 packages and just delete assets you don't use, that would be great.

It was pure pleasure to test this FM. Kingsal proved again that he really understands design and aesthetic aspects that made Thief: The Dark Project unique. What is more important, he proved that you can successfully bring these into TDM and make an enjoyable mission. Volta I and II are solid proof that legacy of Thief can live on in TDM. If you want to convince a DromEder to switch to TDM, this is what you should show By the way, there should be a mission thread on TTLG forums as well.

By the way, while we have separate channels for player and narrator, we don't have something more intuitive for the players, i.e. distinction between music and sound effects. For now, SFX works like master volume, as it turns down player and AI footsteps, voices, music via location system and sounds placed in the speakers within the level, etc. Ambient volume affects both music via location system and sounds placed in speakers on the map, so it's kind of useless. Correct me if I'm wrong but for now sliders include less intuitive developer/mapper perspective on sound types http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Sound_Folder_Structure I think it would be great to have something more clear, with players in mind.

I don't think TDM team should take responsibility for whatever number of great maps that are sitting on people's hard drives but never got released. This way there won't be any updates ever. Focus on one thing and get your stuff released, so your map can be taken into account, if future changes break anything.

My thoughts exactly, we need a set of templates and guidelines, so mappers can start with something, and then adjust values to their liking. Sure! Again, I can't say I understand how all values work (I still haven't touched stuff like environment size or environment diffusion), but we should be able to come up with something by just using main values.

With TDM 2.06 mappers and players can use OpenAL EFX system, which is basically an open-source software replacement for systems like EAX, which, at the time, was available only for dedicated hardware by Creative. This allows us to set reverb definitions for rooms, and in my opinion, it's a game-changer for TDM FMs. If you ever played old Thief games with EAX-enabled hardware, you know what I mean. Otherwise, try playing Kingsal's Volta and the Stone with EFX On and Off to see the difference. It's a new life for game environments. The EAX reference page in the Wiki can be quite intimidating though, there are many values to tinker with. I have some basic sound recording experience, but I'm not an audio guy. The purpose of this thread is to create clear guidelines for other non-audio guys. If you're an audio guy, these values will be familiar to you, because you can find similar parameters in Reverb plugins, e.g. for Adobe Audition. (Btw. feel free to correct me whenever I'm wrong about something.) First off, your map has to use location system. EFX system needs location names, and it will define reverb per location. It also needs location separators touching visportals to make proper transition between reverb for different locations. Create 'efxs' folder in your project root folder, create a text file map_name.efx, and open it. Now, first thing EFX system needs is a version number, so every .efx file needs start with Version 1 (I don't think any other number works). So, a typical .efx file with room definitions looks like this: Version 1 reverb "location1_name_here" { values here } reverb "location2_name_here" { values here }etc. And that's it. It seems like you don't need to include every parameter you see in the Wiki reference. Some variables don't do much or hardly do anything. Even if you delete something, the system will use the default value. You can have an empty set like above, and you won't break anything. You can also change the order of parameters, e.g. if you have your own workflow. Even then, making efx presets for all your locations manually can be really time-consuming. I bet a lot of mappers will want to make this as fast as possible, so they can move to more important things. That's where default presets come in handy. I prepared a set of general-purpose presets you can use in your locations. I tested them both on headphones and speakers, and they tend to sound quieter on speakers. If you think a preset is too quiet or too loud for your location, just put a "room" parameter in your definition, to change the volume. -1500 is the default value, and the volume range is from -5000 to 0 where 100 equals 1 db. Also, feel free to modify these presets as you wish: // Castle courtyard "environment diffusion" 0.6 "room hf" -1500 "room lf" -2000 "decay time" 2.13 "decay hf ratio" 0.61 "decay lf ratio" 0.23 "reflections" -500 "reflections delay" 0.16 "reverb delay" 0.36 "echo depth" 0.37 // Castle bathroom "environment size" 1.5 "environment diffusion" 0.75 "decay time" 1.8 "decay hf ratio" .5 "decay lf ratio" 2 "room hf" -4000 "reverb" 500 // Sewer pipe "environment diffusion" 0.8 "room hf" -1500 "room lf" 0 "decay time" 2.81 "decay hf ratio" 0.14 "reflections" 0 "reflections delay" 0.014 "reverb" 600 "reverb delay" 0.021 // Cave "environment size" 1.3 "environment diffusion" 0.75 "room hf" -200 "decay time" 3.5 "decay hf ratio" 1.5 "reflections" 400 "reflections delay" 0.015 "reverb" 1000 "reverb delay" 0.022 // Forest "room hf" -2000 "decay hf ratio" 0.54 "reflections" -1500 "reflections delay" 0.162 "reverb" -4300 "reverb delay" 0.088 "echo depth" 1 // Short stone corridor "environment diffusion" 0.6 "room hf" -400 "decay time" 1.2 "decay hf ratio" 0.75 "reflections" 400 "reflections delay" 0.004 "reverb" 1000 "reverb delay" 0.003 "echo time" 0.06 "hf reference" 5168.6 "lf reference" 139.5 // Small stone room "room hf" -400 "decay time" 1.15 "decay hf ratio" 0.75 "reflections" 0 "reflections delay" 0.006 "reverb" 600 "reverb delay" 0.005 "echo time" 0.06 "hf reference" 5168.6 "lf reference" 139.5 // Medium stone room "room hf" -400 "decay time" 1.5 "decay hf ratio" 0.75 "reflections" -1000 "reverb" 800 "echo time" 0.12 "hf reference" 5168.6 "lf reference" 139.5 // Large stone room "room hf" -400 "decay time" 2.2 "decay hf ratio" 0.75 "reflections" -2800 "reverb" 750 "reverb delay" 0.03 "hf reference" 5168.6 "lf reference" 139.5 // Short wood corridor "environment diffusion" 0.6 "room hf" -600 "room lf" -1600 "decay time" 1.75 "decay hf ratio" 0.5 "decay lf ratio" 0.87 "reflections" -650 "reflections delay" 0.012 "reverb" 200 "reverb delay" 0.024 "hf reference" 4705 "lf reference" 99.6 // Small wood room "room hf" -1200 "room lf" -800 "decay time" 0.79 "decay hf ratio" 0.32 "decay lf ratio" 0.87 "reflections" -500 "reflections delay" 0.032 "reverb" 0 "reverb delay" 0.029 "hf reference" 4705 "lf reference" 99.6 // Medium wood room "room hf" -1000 "room lf" -650 "decay time" 1.47 "decay hf ratio" 0.42 "decay lf ratio" 0.82 "reflections" -650 "reflections delay" 0.049 "reverb" 0 "reverb delay" 0.029 "hf reference" 4705 "lf reference" 99.6 // Large wood room "room hf" -600 "room lf" -650 "decay time" 2.65 "decay hf ratio" 0.33 "decay lf ratio" 0.82 "reflections" -650 "reflections delay" 0.066 "reverb" -400 "reverb delay" 0.049 "hf reference" 4705 "lf reference" 99.6 // Cathedral "environment diffusion" 0.87 "room hf" -1800 "room lf" -2400 "decay time" 9.48 "decay hf ratio" 0.19 "decay lf ratio" 0.1 "reflections" -500 "reflections delay" 0.09 "reverb" 0 "reverb delay" 0.042 "echo depth" 0.12 "hf reference" 2854.4 "lf reference" 20 // City streets "environment diffusion" 0.78 "room hf" -600 "room lf" -750 "decay time" 1.79 "decay hf ratio" 1.12 "decay lf ratio" 0.91 "reflections" -750 "reflections delay" 0.046 "reverb" -1000 "reverb delay" 0.028 "echo depth" 0.2 // City - abandoned "environment diffusion" 0.69 "room hf" -200 "room lf" -100 "decay time" 3.28 "decay hf ratio" 1.17 "decay lf ratio" 0.91 "reflections" -1200 "reflections delay" 0.044 "reverb" -1800 "reverb delay" 0.024 "echo depth" 0.2 "air absorption hf" -3.2 // Museum "room hf" -1800 "room lf" -1800 "decay time" 3.28 "decay hf ratio" 1.4 "decay lf ratio" 0.5 "reflections delay" 0.039 "reverb delay" 0.0034 "echo time" 0.13 "echo depth" 0.17 "hf reference" 2854.4 "lf reference" 107.5 (...) Now, if you're more interested in how the system works and how you can adjust values to get what you want, take a look at these values. Main values "room" Value Range: -10000 to 0 (-100 to 0 db) Master volume (gain) for both early reflections and reverb. Default value sits around -1500. Lower values actually decrease natural sound reverb. "reverb" Value Range: -10000 to 2000 (-100 to 20 db) Reverb gain parameter. Default value is 0. Higher values feel like you're in a medium or small room with reflective surfaces. Lower values actually decrease natural reverb of the sounds. "reflections" Value Range: -10000 to 0 (-100 to 0 db) Early reflections gain. The louder and less delayed these are, the more it feels like you're closer to the wall (inside a small empty room). "decay time" Value range: 0.1 to 20 (0.1 to 20 seconds) Time for the reverb to decay. Helps determine the size of a room. Average small rooms will have a reverb decay around 0.35 sec. A cathedral or a cavern will have 4-6 sec. Default value is 1.49. (...) Values for fine-tuning "reverb delay" Value range: 0.0 to 0.1 (0-100 ms) Creates delayed reverb effect. Default value is 0.011. "reflections delay" Value range: 0.0 to 0.3 (0-300 ms) Delays early reflections. Default value is 0.007. (...) Example workflow: 1. Use "reverb" to define how dead or live the room is. Add some delay with "reverb delay" if needed. 2. If the room is large (think cavern, canyon, or cathedral), use "decay time" to define bigger space. 3. Use "room" if you want to make "reverb" or "decay time" sound louder or quieter than the default (-1500). 4. Use "reflections" to tweak early sound reflections. (...) Notes / tips: 1. For volume / db parameters, don't bother with testing very low values. In real life, good self-noise characteristics for microphones and recorders is around -60 db. That means most people won't hear that noise. So, whenever you have ranges from -10000 to 0 or 2000, using values below -6000 probably won't do much. 2. If possible, use closed headphones for testing and tweaking, and then see how it holds up on your PC speakers. (...) As you see, this is work in progress, I will update this post with new information and useful things we come up with.

I've been playing with these values for quite some time today. I can't say I understand what each of these parameters does yet, but there are some good news here. First of all, you don't need to include every parameter you see in the Wiki reference. There are quite a few variables that don't seem to do anything. Even if you delete something important, the system will just skip that parameter or will use the default value. You can also change the order of the parameters, which is good, because the wiki reference doesn't have the most logical order (or any workflow in mind). Secondly, from what I've tried so far, I can say that you'll need only 2-3 major parameters per location to achieve most common acoustic effects. The rest is just tweaks or very peculiar effects, like dampening high or low frequencies, either for the reflected sound or the source sound (which is cool, but often not necessary).

Also, having a console command for restarting OpenAL/EFX system would help a great deal in setting up these definitions in your map. Right now, you have to restart the game and reload the map to hear the changes, which is time-consuming. (I use a separate test room to do it faster).

Re: EFX, Right now it's safe to assume that room reverb settings affect all the sounds. Things like player/narrator voice, UI sounds, and ambience_zoned sounds played via location system are also affected. If you want to test it for yourself, you can use values like these in your efx definition:

I think we should thoroughly test how EFX affects all types of sounds and teach mappers to use sound channels properly. For now, we know that it affects player voice (incorrect), player grunts (correct), frob loot sound (IMO, incorrect). I also have a tiny, teeny suspicion that it affects ambient music streamed via location system, but I'll need to verify it later.

As for the strange motion: launch the St. Lucia mission, walk up to the 3 lit windows nearby, and then try looking around, and then strafing, with multi-core option on/off, and with the uncap fps option on/off. Do you see the same stuttering I do? With uncapped fps set to off I see these little jumps while moving. WIth both options set to on, the fps counter shows 60 fps, but the movement is as if it was 24 fps or something. Looking around is fluid though. (This was on x64 version.)

Not source of inspiration per se, but free source of precious knowledge. It's amazing how back in the day this was reserved only to industry specialists. Now it's open to everyone. There's even a full character rigging tutorial. https://www.youtube.com/user/3dsMaxHowTos/playlists?sort=dd&view=50&shelf_id=21

Yup, 2 quicksave slots, 2 autosave slots (to avoid file corruption problem), and manual save slots is kind of all-around system. As for saving conditions, AFAIR Dishonored doesn't even allow manual saves while you're in combat, which makes sense too. I don't think checkpoints are typically for linear games, although they're sure easier to implement there. MGSV is an open-world game, and it has checkpoints only. The game saves before you pass any outpost, town or other section of the map, and when you enter/exit mission zones. There's no manual save. And this was a conscious design decision. First off, you don't have to think about saving. You also can't do cheap "perfectionist" runs. You have to learn the location layout, see where key items are, watch for AI patrols etc. You have to improvise and use gadgets if you fail at stealth, which you typically do when you don't know the location yet. You can also flee, but you'll have to start that area from scratch. That seems a bit frustrating to "compulsive perfectionists", but it also makes any perfect stealth/ghost runs feel like they're truly earned. That is a victory not cheapened by mashing Save button every time you think you might fail. These missions rarely take more than 15-20 minutes, so there's not much progress lost. Story missions are longer, but they have checkpoints every now and then. Dark Souls is a semi-open world game, and it autosaves basically all the time. Every time you hit/kill a monster, every time you get hit/killed, when you open/close the game menu, talk to an NPC etc. Bonfire autosaves are more of the "mental checkpoints" for the player, so you can divide your playing sessions into manageable chunks. You can Alt+F4 out of the game and you barely lose any progress. These two games save it for you, but what is more important, they make you deal with consequences of your actions, with Dark Souls being obviously more brutal than MGSV. But in both cases the world and gameplay design had to support this system, so it's definitely not an easy thing to make. Another thing is what Pete already mentioned: sometimes I'm so immersed in the game, that I actually forget to save. And after some 20 minutes of gameplay, I make a stupid mistake, fall off a ledge and get killed. (Edit: too many typos)

Not really, the player psychology is much bigger problem, at least from the designer standpoint. That's why insead of letting player save all the time and expoit that feature, designers create checkpoint systems that try to handle this seamlessly, so the player focuses on gameplay. You may think that manual saving is the best thing since sliced bread, and of course you're entitled your opinion, but it's not superior to anything else, as you're trying to imply. It's just one of many systems.