Deadlove

Don't get me wrong, I think TDM is the most grand thing since sliced bread when it comes to a true spiritual successor for Thief, but there are things that spoil this for me. Not to be a downer, but I'm curious the community's perspective on things in TDM that need improvement to hold the grand element of suspension of disbelief (VERY IMPORTANT). Maybe I should've named the thread "best improvement for TDM" or whatever...I think it would be helpful for areas of the game we find distracting, cheesy, or take away from the experience. Personally, I find the sound in TDM to be sub-par with most things, and it destroys the immersion. And this is relative to the original Thief as well, because anyone who lived it knows it can easily be said that it was NOT the graphics that made Thief a success. The graphics that Thief came with were actually a bit poor in comparison to other games of the time. Again, I will state that the sound design was a key part to at least my own immersion success into the game. I understand that we are all just die-hard Thief fans that are giving life to a niche market because we love to play this way, but I want to help get the sounds beefed up. When I step in a puddle of water on the street it sounds like someone running their hand in water from a bathtub or sink. Total boner kill. The voice acting is more so than not forced and a bit pathetic sounding. Sorry guys, I just have to call it as I see it. Some dynamic processing can work wonders on some of these issues. Others, I think may need total overhaul. For example, I also think the zombies sound terrible. Weapon sounds are all okay as far as I can tell so far. Surface sounds that the player steps on are okay, but I think need touch up. This is all just my humble little opinion...and I'm not throwing stones without suggesting help, as I am a bit of an audiophile and have lots of gear to help out in the sound department. This is also why I think my mind plays into the audio part, as I'm a music/audio/sound person moreso than anything else. So if there's a way I can get my hands on some of the raw audio assets I can try out some EQing and compression and whatnot, and then see what the board thinks of it. If nothing else, it can be used in custom made missions...again, I'm not well educated on how to do this. I can create / fix up sounds, but don't know how to get them into the program. There's a whole bunch more, but this was just what I could quickly remember off the top of my head for a forum post without taking notes and getting into a work mode, etc. Other member opinions on the least satisfying part of TDM or comments on the sounds as I started with?

Lots of hate on the zombies, burricks and spiders...the annoying part of those enemies is the best part, they suck! I love having to deal with enemies that I hate, it makes things so much more frustrating and great! Challenge; when the going gets tough, the tough get going. I'm an animal lover too so I kinda feel a bit when I put down a burrick and it makes that whimpering sound like a dog or whatnot. Sometimes I leave them alive and let them run around (i.e. Haunted Cathedral). The sound design on both games is off the charts, but TDP has a bit more of that extra creepy that I can't get enough of. It builds the atmosphere so much. I LOVE that I can turn off the music (ambient?) and the game is still drenched with atmosphere. Personally, I can't stand music in games because in real life there is no soundtrack to looting a boneyard, cathedral, jail, etc. It's very tense and realistic and helps keep the player on the edge of their seat. Kudos to Looking Glass. The weirdness was a little more over the top on TDP. I really liked The Sword and how Constantine was a fan of building upside down and sideways rooms. Why not? It was refreshing given that it's not possible in the real world, but seeing it in a game made for good enjoyment. I can't choose between the two, both have ups and downs. Both are critical in their own right.

It's pretty wild that 20 years after DOOM the mods are still getting critical acclaim. Personally, no DOOM mods have really appealed to me save ZDoom / Doomsday, where nothing is changed save modern 3d graphics support + the ability to use modern controlling schemes. There's something about altering the original presentation that just ruins it for me. Also love how Doomsday supported any game made on the DOOM engine. HEXEN / HERETIC and even STRIFE are a blast to play with the mod. Shame TDM didn't make the cut, but whatever, to each their own...really love how with TDM the community can modify the mod and continue to expand the universe of it, without losing the essence of what the original designers intended. If I knew more about modeling, animating and the like, I'd be helping to bring mages, pagans and elementals to life within the TDM world. I think TDM has all corners covered in respect to non-magic entities. The one thing I think TDM lacks is the magical elements that were present in TDP.

Do unconscious bodies dropped in water drown and die? Thus failing a mission with no kills as objective?

The engine name is idTech4. Same engine introduced with DOOM 3. QUAKE 4, WOLFENSTEIN, PREY and other games are built on, TDM can technically be considered another one of those games since it's a total conversion + standalone now.

I had the same issue in the beginning on the city streets not being able to rope arrow the wood above the open window. As far as everything else, played smooth enough that i don't remember anything worth citing. The elevator shaft was one of my favorite parts. I knew what to do instantly, and I think that for anyone who is familiar with playing THIEF it should come as no surprise how to handle that. For FM's that start the player with a predisposed amount of weaponry / gear, always scroll your inventory / ammo to see what you're carrying from the get go to better plan your strategy. Also, save before using up certain gear so if it doesn't work you can easily reload without losing valuable tools. I can never tell what gear was intended for certain use, so I always like to have at least one or more if possible of a said item for in case it's needed. NHAT is the only FM I've played up to this point that a single mission took longer than an hour to complete. Fighting zombies and being able to actually kill them with a sword came as a surprise. I figured they'd just get back up and walk around if they were taken down with a sword and not holy water. I've learned that by watching the model and anticipating the blows you can figure out stepping in and out of reach and then move back in for another attack. This applies to any enemy. The sword fighting system in TDM is a bit more complicated than THIEF, but I like it just the same. Also, combat in TDM is far more fast paced, and it requires the player to adapt, or die. Can zombies sense your presence and will become alert to your presence if they get close enough regardless of if you've been spotted or not? Like in the original THIEF games?

I'm actually in the opposite boat when it comes to the OP's post. The dedicated key to walk/run in TDP/Gold was one of my least favorite features. I am just very used to the modifiers ever since Wolf 3d. So it's just breaking habit. I was very glad this was changed around in TMA. I would guess that since TDM is built from D3, that this is why it is the same way with key modifiers. I don't have any crashing issues. I will agree on game load times are a bit long for the initial loading, it is slow, but once loaded, quick load / regular load times are very speedy. Only thing that is a bit troublesome for me with TDM is centering certain items on screen to either pick up or move around. More times than not it is a bit of a burden.

How about sounds, does the Fire Elemental emit a burning sound like the Fire Spectre from TGold? Noticed on the wiki it says "character not in TDM yet" or something similar. What's missing from it being in TDM? How is it intended to attack, by touching the player and burning, or firing a projectile? Both? Does this also mean that custom sounds would have to be created for each elemental too then?

Noticed there is a Fire Elemental in the wiki, very cool!! I was hoping that there was one of those... Is there a way to make Water Elemental, Earth Elemental or Air Elemental? Fire opposite vulnerable to water, the others I'd guess... Water vulnerable to fire, earth vulnerable to gas, air vulnerable to moss? Are the amount of enemy models restricted to the amount of enemies in D3 and what entity that the new model replaces, or is it possible to have all four elementals? What was the original enemy/model that was replaced for elemental...the lost soul?

So can we make a map as large as Sabotage At Soulforge? Or Mages Tower, the larger T2 maps? From using the editor briefly (I'm not a mapper by any means), DR / Radiant appears to me as just a giant cube for building area, is this correct? And then the mapper fills in as much as they can fit into that cube?

How about like in the mission Undercover from TDP...can you make guards/NPC's non-hostile toward the player unless they enter certain area or hit certain switch and then the NPC's become hostile?

Congrats! PC Gamer was mag that I subscribed to back in the day. Great achievement. Computer Gaming World + PC Accelerator were also good in those days. It was a PC Accelerator demo disc that introduced me to TDP...that was before I even had a 3D graphics card.......that year I got Diamond Monster 3D 2 for Christmas. Wow......how time / technology flies....

I'd say that rings true for a lot of European countries. GameStar seems to have been hip on the mod since even before the initial release. Good to see the continued coverage as the mod has expanded and is now standalone.

Nevermind, video I was looking for had people talking while gameplay.......after searching it out I noticed on closer listen misheard the audio. Guess that'll happen when you're hoping for something more + you're listening to all sound from a tiny one channel box instead of real speakers or headphones. Original post edited + THIEF 4 hopes dwindled back a bit, again. :excl:

Totally agreed. For me, a game should have a specific way to be played, and specific methods. For example a player wouldn't use the same methods for playing football as in playing basketball and hope to get the same results. Or another example is poker strategies to blackjack strategies... This I believe goes beyond genres of games as well. Back in the day, at least for me, even FPS games all had to be played a certain way depending on what game you were playing. Can't play THIEF same way as SS2 or QUAKE and expect same results... Nowadays, it feels that the majority of games within a certain genre all seem to follow same pattern or playing and it makes the initial playing (not even the replay) that much more dumbed down. Sad but true, I was very anxious for Bioschok Infinite only to find the mindless action "strategy" or playing was akin to Halo (which I REALLY don't care for AT ALL), or that bomb people call DUKE NUKEM FOREVER. If it wasn't for the story, I wouldn't have lasted in that game. Anyone keen to SS2 to BIO to Infinite will notice the dumbing down of the game to appeal to larger demographics. Again, sad but true. As much as I love the atmosphere, setting, characters, and entire presentation of the THIEF universe, it would've totally flopped in my book if there was a certain technique to playing it that separated it from the pack. The actually "gaming" part is the most important for me, the rest is icing on the cake. If this wasn't the case, I'd just read a book or watch a movie to get a fix on whatever I was seeking out. The majority of THIEF for me was spent in crouch mode while walking through shadows, not conventional, but I love how it forced me to move slowly or suffer constant end game. EDIT: Also, another thing I really love about the first two THIEF titles is that the missions themselves all stand out individually, and each has its own special presence.

Ken Levine writes great story lines, in my opinion, even if I can figure them out twists before they are revealed. Then again, I love it when a game gives the player the ability to figure it out if they take their time and read journals, listen to audio logs, take in the universe of the game, etc. so that it's quite obvious by the time the game reveals it to the player. He was the guy who authored the main three arc plot line for the original TDP before it got into heavy development. Also, SS2, Bioshock, Bioshock Infinite.

I'd actually be more keen to THIEF 4 if Erin was the main character that the player assumed the role of, and Garrett was left out. I just can't get passed Stephen Russell not being the voice. The latest trailer also hinted at some kind of supernatural presence. There's a quick shot at the end of it of some kind of creature that is not human by any means. If anyone has played PREY, they may remember Tommy having to fight his girlfriend Jen after what the aliens did to her. This was twisted, but the plot device has been used enough that it's predictable. At least to someone who is familiar with story lines. There are only so many of them, and they get recycled quite a bit since even Greek mythology. The Human Head Studio team who did PREY broke off from Raven Software, and some of those minds were responsible for HERETIC / HEXEN, so I was keen to it before I even played it. Even BIOSHOCK Infinite, I kinda had the ending pinned before the end. I like when the games give the player enough to figure it out before it's revealed, but since I've gotten older it's become harder for me to get that "oh no I can't believe I've been double crossed, used, and now I need to fight against the force I was working with/for" that TDP or SS2 wowed me with when I was in my early teen years.

I remember Garrett saying before somewhere along the lines of "I WORK ALONE" kinda thing. Hope that Erin doesn't come back half way through THIEF 4 as an enemy and it's supposed to be some kind of surprise.

Not to keep the posts rolling, but I've heard that the whole faction (Hammer/Pagan/Keeper) has been removed from the game. (or possibly not yet revealed?) The dev's wants to focus on just stealing, etc. A huge part of THIEF for me was the lore of the City, with Hammers (Order), Pagans,(Chaos), City Watch/Nobles(ignorant society),and the Keepers (maintaining balance). And Garrett is the protagonist/anti-hero that kept these things in line as much as he didn't want to be part of it. But he was "chosen" and that gave the player the ability to really immerse themself in that fictional world. The game is not out yet tho, so I can't throw stones. Given the trailers and discusssions it does not seem that they will be following the footsteps of the previous titles. I can hope for something...but my gut is telling me something different. Who knows?

And it's also too much of a coincidence now that stealth gaming has a market to cater to, that Eidos would want to reboot the franchise given the succcess of ASSASSIN'S CREED or DISHONOURED. However, I don't consider either of those games stealth. They a hybrid of stealth and action, similar to DEUS EX:HR, where action paramounts over stealth. True stealth is the essence of THIEF, not hitting a button and then a cinematic sequence shows the character/player jumping down and taking out someone. That is dandy for watching a movie, but it removes all the tension/challenge/reward from actually having to DO IT YOURSELF.

I don't know this for sure, but I'm fairly certain that everyone on the development team has never worked on any previous THIEF game.

Agreed on both posts about this. THIEF did a great job with levers that controlled certain electrical lamps, and leaving others on for the player to navigate a stealth approach than being able to use a tool to remove the light source.

That's a very creative way to tell that someone has been patrolling the area! On the flipside, I find it a bit unrealistic that the object being moved wouldn't alert the guard's suspicion of 'why is this cup in the middle of the carpet where I'm walking but wasn't there a moment ago?" I'm aware that guard can be put on alert if certain objects are moved, stolen, torches out. Perhaps it's not too far out of the equation that if it's near a window or what not, then it can become believable that something could've fallen off a table and landed on the floor. But then again, would it land standing up? Even if it was laying on its side, a guard patrolling will still kick the item in question to create a sound. Would that sound accidentally trigger a guard into an alert state if these objects were set to trigger guards into alert states? Even though the incident occurred by the NPC and not the player?

Never realized there was a death sentence for anyone who wanted to get down to the street. I tried various ways using ropes and scaling pipes, just thought the fall was too far. :-) Not using moveable objects is a very good way to avoid clutter with the map. I must say that I am the type of a puzzle solver and enjoy being able to manipulate the environment moving things/physics to reach a place that is off limits without figuring that type of stuff out. These are some notes that I shared with Sotha regarding the mission. I enjoyed having to rope arrow my way across the city, mounting onto ledges and pipes before getting access to the backyard area of the manor. The steam activating at certain points to cause damage to the player was a very nice touch. Enjoyed the casual conversation between the guards too. The relighting of certain light sources adds such a nice challenge...seeing the player's craftiness get undone. On candles you can pinch them, but for the torches it's tough because the player has to decide whether or not to sacrifice a water arrow. The manor was very well set up as well. I like that it included maps, just like the original Thief did. Although for me personally, I prefer less detail on the map pointing out areas, guards, etc. That way the player gets a basic idea, but not an actual blueprint. Makes it even more challenging. This is give or take, because for different maps different marks are intended to give the player direction. There was one other remark, but I'm not sharing that because I don't want to spoil anything for anyone who hasn't played the mission.

Man, I played these out of order. Currently did Knighton Manor + The Phrase Book. Will have to go back and play the others. I will leave feedback for the missions on the other thread. Nice series!