wesp5

I played both test versions with "The Bakery Job" and as everybody could guess, I like stgatilov's version better because it is consistent. I don't see why daft's version should be more intuitive, especially as shouldering bodies and extinguishing lights are working in opposite ways. Still I believe that without a tutorial or key binding hint, no new players will discover either version on their own as double-frob and long-frob are not used elsewhere. stgatilov, is it possible to make both double-frob and long-frob work in your version? Also to really make this consistent, could you add eating food on double frob too, please?

I did something similar by improving the description of some of the key binding. Everybody is going over them and might pick up additional info about e.g. the use key. This is one reason why, escpecially if we can't agree on a frob behaviour, there should be an option button to switch it, which automatically will make people aware that the feature exists!

I don't think this would fix the problems of the current tutorial. Which for me is that it is just too boring and random, especially because you can select what section to do in what order! I can imagine player trying one or two and then abandoning the rest while missing information. Maybe we could add more tutorial-like situations and infos to the official campaign missions instead?

That is the way that Daft and Wellingtoncrab see it, but others like I guess Snatcher and myself see it differently. I believe that the primary and secondary actions should be consistent inside the gameworld and not be connected to subjective opinions on what players might use more often or what they might know from older games. Otherwise the candle light behaviour should be reversed as well, because probably more players want to extinguish a light than carry it around. And consumables should automatically be eaten. Right now it's a wild mix of actions with no coherent reasoning behind it! Also I just tested the dragging behaviour in thebigh's new training mission segment and it is indeed a chore. If there is a mission where this is needed for a longer period of time, as thebigh claims, players will be annoyed! And it will be the same if the light and consumables behaviour would be reverted as it should be by the essence you see behind the proposal. As for thebigh's new segment, it looks fine, but basically all the info was always available in the book of the blackjack room.

No, because 200 ms do not matter to me . Still, I don't really know if I understand the problem with dragging. Shouldn't long frob dragging lock onto the body once, or do you really need to press frob the whole time while you move a body?

Again, this could be fixed by reversing short frob and long frob for bodies. Is it really that much of a problem to hold frob 200 ms longer to shoulder a body?

I am completely on your side and I really would like to have such a cvar too, as I said ;). Then you can include it into your mod and I into my patch and all of us will be happy in the end :)!

That is actually the best explanation I have read here yet...

Because it is the consistent way TDM handles all moveable entities. Q.E.D. ;)!

Don't you get that I mentioned my alternative over and over again? The original players had an issue because they didn't know they need to use a different key for shouldering a body. If this is done by long frobbing instead, the same as e. g. multilooting or extinguishing a candle in your current patch this problem is solved! I have no issues with the idea, I only would like to have the order consistent: short frob - pick up (as is normal with all moveables in TDM), long frob - special action (like shouldering, extinguishing, multilooting or maybe eating consumables next). The thing I find inconsistent is that you see shouldering not as a special action. Also I hope Daft is kind enough to add a cvar variable with which this can be adjusted, it shouldn't be too difficult to reverse short and long triggers.

It's very easy to change text in the tutorial mission, I did so for my Unofficial Patch and I even added items.

What do you think about my suggestion, which I mentioned often enough, that long frob shoulders a body and drops it? Chances are very low that you encounter another long frob situation while shouldering a body when your hands are tied.

I should remind you that my Unoffcial Patch already includes another way to instantly extinguish candles in holders by making the candle a seperate entity that can be frobed. This might be a way out of this problem...

That would be great, but what I would really like is just a cvar to reverse the short frob and long frob behaviour for bodies. Also the optimal solution would probably be to add gameplay options so each player can set this how they want it! This would also fix the problem of players not knowing about the new controls. But then this might be a lot of additional work.

No, but I would really like to have the option to have it the other way around too, because I think the idea as such is fine.

Cyberpunk 2077 for example shows exactly how long a control is pressed with a little changing icon...

To me shouldering is not the most likely action. What about getting items from corpses or looking up their name using snatcher's improvement? And what about food, is the player forced to eat it automatically now?

I agree with snatcher that the current solution has the bodies backwards and I have another example: consumables. Right now it's frob to take and use to eat. Your solution would be frob to eat and long frob to what, not eat? Because we need this for missions where you are supposed to give consumables to somebody. The consistent solution would be frob to take and long frob to eat. So it must be frob to take bodies and long frob to shoulder them. I for one do not should everybody I knock out, only those who might rise suspicions. As for auto opening of doors, I had this off by default, but sadly there are missions who only work with this on, which indeed is an mistake of these missions, but thus has become standard...

As far as I know in TDM if the object is moveable frobing it will ALWAYS pick it up. Only stationary readables are read. Only stationary switches are flipped. Only stationary doors are opened. Shouldering a moveable body is inconstent behaviour!

I completely agree, but I think it could be made consistent in both long frob or double frob by reversing the body shouldering behaviour. I don't know why everybody here thinks a body should immediately be shouldered.

I like your idea, but I have not bound Frob to the mouse, so you mean single frob vs double frob, yes?

I did some LARP bow shooting and would guess that's it would be really difficult to do this while leaning. Also doesn't the player basically get an full invisible shot if the enemies can't see him or can enemies see a leaning player?

So what happens if you frob something while carrying a body? Isn't the body dropped then and the solution suggested to avoid this was to only do the shouldering/unshouldering with long frob? What if I want to take a key or something else from a body and accidentally frob the body itself? It will be shouldered at once which I don't think is the optimal solution.

I see this differently: When you short frob a candle, you can move it in the world. Then you do the special operation, long frob or use, to extinguish it. With a body it was the same: When you short frob it, you can move it in the world. Then you do the special operation, long frob or use, to shoulder it. Your current solution is counterintuitive to that and it also looks much too fast because of this! Can you add a variable to turn that behaviour around? Or could this be done by editing a script or something? Also wasn't long frob supposed to be used to unshoulder a body now, which again is counterintuitive to the short frob shouldering behaviour?

I just tested the Windows version that was uploaded on the latest 1.12 rc, but I get confusing results. Like when I frob a candle with holder, short frob will take it and long frob will extinguish it. When frobing a body it's the other way around though, short frob will shoulder it and long frob will take it. Short frob on the latter also gives the impression that the body is shouldered very quickly! I suggest to swap this and fix both issues in one go.