Wellingtoncrab

You keep misrepresenting my stance - I don't think the changes should be made so it the same as thief and I don't think the games should be the same in all regards. I kept asking why is it that thief has more context sensitive frobbing interactions, such as with bodies, but they are not considered inconsistent by players. It is obviously the template for the game after all. No one answered this and you seemingly dismissed it as a "lame excuse".

These frustrations are real and they are actively preventing people from playing the game. There are plenty more examples in the first post. The idea that TDM is "alive" but nothing can or should be done to help these players into the game doesn't make much sense to me. If I experience 0% of the frustrations described above and actively enjoy playing the game more will something be included as a option for me and these players? I think of Deus Ex: Mankind Divided which has a heavily revised control scheme to allow for more complex interactions, but allows you to select the Human Revolution controls if you prefer those. Nothing as far as two entirely separate control layers. But were there is an object interaction mode where you can pick between "TDM" which is how it is today and an "Classic" mode where these interactions are more intuitive for these players. Then at least they would have some hope of finding an answer in the options menu for them.

I don’t understand your point at all. In thief if a book is stationary frobbing it will read it. If it’s a inventory item you will pick it up and then you need to use it to read it. It is the exact same in TDM - is this too inconsistent? Why didn’t we change it? In thief bodies are primitive physics objects just like crates. Why did they not worry about whether this was inconsistent that the body didn’t first hover in front of the player instead of just shouldering it? Who knows - we weren’t in the room but as far as I can tell this has never confused anyone - where as it’s relatively easy to find examples of how tdms solutions are confusing and feel unnatural to players. TDM was created in response to negative feedback from the thief community about TDS. While I like the game TDS has notoriously bad game feel and it is disappointing to see people who love the games dismiss TDM using the same language and they never make it far enough with the game to see everything it has to offer. We have a lot offer. That is why it’s important to me as a player first and person who makes content for the game second.

@wesp5at this point you can disagree with it - but are you really missing why there is an attempt to make the body shouldered with one click? Read the first post but readdressed a few times at this point

This is exactly the dynamic of interacting with objects vs bodies in the game Thief and it does not confuse players. It is consistent in that frobbing an object does the primary interaction with said object: If it’s a crate pick it up If it’s a readable read it If it’s a switch flip it If it’s a door open it If it’s a body shoulder it I have never heard anyone describe this as inconsistent. This is false - clicking again unshoulders a body, just like it does in thief. This I would say there is some agreement - it would have been nice for the primary interaction with lit candles to be to snuff them out, but since unlit candles and candle holders are also physics objects that cannot be toggle lit, this is quite confusing when going to interact with unlit candles such as this array in the training mission As stated it is arguable the primary interactions of physics objects is to pick them up.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but this seems to have been the position on other accessibility features not needing to be forward for existing players in places like the main menu as long as they are addressable by cvar? But they will at a minimum be able to move a body right away without sinking hours into the game thinking they can only drag them around. As far as the merits of double click vs long press it sounds like it is worth testing, but can’t say without feeling it out. Long press has been working fine on my end.

It’s incredibly common in controller mapping - to the point even the game’s current controller implementation supports it. Not sure if switching this to a double click is additive or subtractive. What is getting lost is the primary interaction with a body imo is actually to shoulder it - not drag it. Obfuscating this behind a second input is clunky and confusing to new players. What is “intuitive” is a matter of perspective, but the current patched method of the initial click shouldering a body makes a lot more sense to me and actually addresses some of the complaints from new players as laid out in the initial post. There is a method via the delay cvar for experienced players who prefer the old system to restore it, so I am uncertain what the down side is really?

I actually feel like they got a little better as time went on. They aren’t my favorite band or anything, but Nevermind, In Utero, and Unplugged are all great albums. Bleach is good but I never felt it was particularly great.

I don’t really see why the best solution for the game should be some approximation of reality, nor do I think the old lean is more successful in this regard. You are not controlling your actual head or torso, you are controlling a video game camera. The slide lean is a more comfortable and meaningful camera position and if you are getting granular with the tap lean it actually gives you more control over how much of your body is actually exposed. With the angle tilt it can be hit or miss to gauge where you need to be in the game world relative to a corner in order to successful lean around it, especially when crouching. This leads to “lean, nudge position, lean” which I think is also not very realistic vs the real world where we have things like full body awareness and necks which allows us to rotate our “cameras” with a lot more flexibility. I find this also improved with the new lean. The result was for me, in conjunction with the new frob behavior, was a game that feels more predictable and responsive to play. This is imo the “main reason to love the change”, not that I perceived the game to be easier (I did not on my recent play through of A Bridge Too Far). In general my opinion is that making the game artificially cumbersome in pursuit of “realism” or less responsive to players inputs is a better way to make an experience more frustrating than it is a way to make it more challenging/rewarding.

[irony] Its a worm that makes crypto. Kind of like a silk worm, but instead of fabric it weaves jpegs of boring monkeys using you local ms paint install or something. I am not current on the technical details tbh but it’s nothing to be concerned about it. [/irony]

Here is a patched windows executable I compiled with both @Daft Mugi's lean and frob patches. I played through all of A Bridge Too Far with and it appears stable to me. [irony] The crypto mining worm I included is pretty light weight so you will only notice a modest FPS drop. [/irony] For what it's worth I think the new lean is an improvement. This combined with the frob changes made the game feel in general like there is less friction when I was trying to quickly snuff a candle, fire off an arrow, move a body quickly out of the way etc.

Just finished. Wow this is a fantastic mission. The setting is so cool with an awesome sense of style, scale and atmosphere. Great design to with many avenues of approach and a great sense of interconnectedness and sense of humor. You did a great job.

@cugzkanias an aside I don’t really want to to steal valor from your testers. My comments in the beta thread were limited to encouraging you to recruit testers in main fan missions forum. While I appreciate the call out I don’t think it’s fair to receive any credit for testing the mission. Looking forward to playing it though!

Congratulations on the release!

@datiswous That was a joke. You asked for thoughts on switching the the thread to be about nirvana. There is a famous line from Smells Like Teen Spirit: “Oh well, whatever, nevermind.” where the name of the album and now this thread comes from.

@nbohr1more to my knowledge they never said it was daft’s feature proposals they were concerned about. I don’t see a reason to make this kind of assumption given they opted to delete the post and not offer any specifics

Oh well. Whatever.

That is awful. I know the sympathy won’t bring your work back, but I am very sorry to hear this happened to you.

Yep! These will be in a CC0 asset pack that hopefully will release before or with the mission.

Yeah - haven’t ever had much luck working with transparencies TBH. It can be quite difficult to make objects read as loot as well. I have been working on some Half-Life 2 esque water materials with depth based opacity/planar reflections but haven’t gotten there and the reflection effect is obviously quite expensive. Maybe some of the same principals could be applied to a nice crystal or glass effect. However the blockout calls, and I must soon answer.

Took a short break from the old block out to make some loot items:

Looks great! The example with firing the water arrow really showed the potential benefit. Looking forward to trying it out!

I think this is feeling pretty damn good.

Hmm .. I am not having this issue on my end - at least the drop is consistent with the current game. I tried the doors/switches/buttons and the context action is working perfectly. If you have a world object highlighted it will interact with it. Otherwise it will drop the body. Have to say it feels great!

It is still requiring "use-item" to drop the body with the new binary on my end. Ah - nevermind - chrome's new bullshit download manager wasn't actually overwriting the executable