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Everything posted by marbleman

  1. It does! I can definitely see how a designer might want to try and teach the player something through limitations. Similarly how no-KO restrictions can make one a better ghoster, I can see how no saving can make one better at combat or improvisation. Is it always successful? No, and, as seen from this thread, the majority of players would rather avoid such a mission/game altogether.
  2. If this thread is in the wrong section, I apologize. If someone can move it, please do. That it would go off-topic and into the discussion of TDM save rooms was somewhat predictable. What I did not expect is an outright hostile reaction. Do I really need to lay it all out? What if I was considering writing an essay on why designers put save restrictions into their games and why some players want to see these restrictions and then try to refute these points? I'm saying "was" because at this point, I don't think that's such a good idea anymore.
  3. Well, have you read my initial post, or did you stop at the thread title? I want to understand these reasons and make sure I am not seeing them exclusively through the lens of my own playstyle. Then, I can make better arguments in favor of quicksaving when I need to. I am not arguing for this change. I am not even talking about save rooms in TDM. I am talking about save restrictions in stealth games in general.
  4. Sorry, but I don't see the contradiction. The topic title is accurate. I am looking for reasons why there should be restrictions on quicksaves. This doesn't mean I advocate for these restrictions, which should become evident if you read the first post.
  5. @ChronA Thanks, this is the kind of answer I'm looking for. You are right on the money with your first point: if I could consistently achieve success in my ghost runs, I would never quicksave, and it would indeed feel more satisfying. Unfortunately, the only way to ensure that's possible is to dumb down the gameplay so much that it becomes hard to actually fail, and I don't think that's a good way to do it. But the "tension" argument is something that opens my eyes a little. I got a similar answer on TTLG, and I will say, having no option to quicksave does make the first playthrough more engaging. However, this doesn't work on repeat playthroughs, instead making them tedious. So I can see a valid reason other than "screw perfectionists and ghosters": to enhance the first playthrough experience at the expense of replay value. Given that most people only play games/missions once, yeah, I can see the merits of that. Though, even in this case, I don't think it works flawlessly because this approach pretty much guarantees that the player will fail at some point. Stealth heavily relies on trial and error, and it is unreasonable to expect the player to get everything right on their first try even in a piss-easy game. Good discussion this. I don't know if I'm making the right conclusions but at least I can see an alternate point of view better now.
  6. I ask what reasons for disallowing quicksaves there are, yet half the replies are that they should be allowed. Guys, I know. I am of this opinion myself. I also love my freedom of saving. Here's the thing: my playstyle is very niche. I am not satisfied with the mission/game unless I get through it undetected. If I get spotted, I could roll with the mistake, sure, but I am no longer satisfied with the run and would rather reload, or, in the case of save restrictions, restart that entire section of the game. So whenever I come across save restrictions, it seems like they are meant to either prevent my playstyle or just make it tedious, requiring me to practice the same thing over and over until I get it right. This is what I meant when I said that I feel like I'm biased here. Surely there are other reasons for these limitations, it's not just to mess with perfectionists, right?
  7. Just to clarify: I'm not against quicksaving in any way. I'm in favor of uninhibited quicksaving. I just want to hear all the counter-points.
  8. I'm aware of those threads. I took part in some of those discussions. This is one of the reasons I created this thread: I only want to hear one, specific side of the argument. This is not about how to restrict saves or best implement these restrictions. I just want to hear what, in general, the ability to quicksave takes away from stealth games (all of them, not just TDM). Sorry if it seems redundant.
  9. Hey all, I'm doing a bit of research on save restrictions in stealth games, and I'd like to hear your opinions on the matter. Basically, the topic of save restrictions has been gaining prominence lately, and some stealth games, including TDM, are starting to adopt this in some form. The explanation I always see in favor of it is, "It's just too easy to reload when you get caught!" which makes me think that the entire reason behind it is to inhibit the ghosting playstyle. However, I can't help but think I'm biased here because ghosting is my preferred playstyle. Thus, I want to ask: what other reasons are there for save restrictions? Note that I'm not looking for reasons that quicksaves should be allowed. I don't want this to turn into a debate thread, I just want to see and understand all possible reasons against quicksaving.
  10. Can someone remind me how to Edit: found it.
  11. The only times I saw alerts manifesting and then disappearing is when a guard becomes immediately more alert. For example, I get 1 suspicion, which quickly drops back to 0, because the guard actually saw me, and now I have 1 search. Seems to be working as intended.
  12. One thing I really appreciated about the mission is that while there is a shop, and items from it can certainly be helpful, you're not required to buy anything. A rope arrow is a good example: if you want one as soon as possible, you can buy it in the shop. But if you want to finish the mission with all loot, you can still get one later.
  13. I never had an issue with how crouching works. I did notice the peculiarity of being able to crouch on ropes and ladders, but I just assumed it is one of TDM's quirks and rolled with it. I'd actually hate to see it gone as climbing a ladder normally makes noise and can alert guards, and crouch-climbing is the surest way to avoid that. That said, being able to jump on a ladder to climb it faster does feel like an exploit.
  14. I can't climb it. The chain doesn't have any collision. Or am I supposed to do something else with it? It's not a problem, I've found a way of getting it, which I'm really proud of.
  15. The main thing is that it can be opened. If it wasn't possible, it'd be my biggest criticism of the mission. Oh, another question. What's the intended way of getting the factory secret, just jumping to it? I activated some mechanism, but it wasn't very useful.
  16. Is there a way to open the big gate between the starting area and market square?
  17. This was a great mission! I had a bit of a rocky start with it, mostly due to my own inattentiveness as I missed the parchment and couldn't get past the checkpoint at the beginning which, coupled with the starting area being rather simple, made me shelve the mission. Turns out the start is deceptively simple as the further in you get, the cooler and more complex the mission becomes, so I'm really glad I got back to it.
  18. A New Job could use a rework too. For one, I'm not sure why the mission that's supposed to be played by TDM newcomers has a difficulty titled "TDM Veteran"...
  19. Regarding the St. Lucia campaign, as a TDM newcomer, I do have a pretty strong opinion about it, that is, The Tears of St. Lucia is a major difficulty spike and is totally not for new players. I never finished it and was close to dropping TDM entirely, but thankfully I tried Melan's Return to the City and Spoonman's Full Moon Fever, which finally got me hooked. I believe it should be reworked to be more accommodating for those who are still learning how the game works. Another thing: TDM newcomers often look at the highest-rated, most-recommended missions when choosing what to play. A potential problem here is that these missions are rated and recommended by TDM players who already know the game, and most of these missions are huge and demanding. For example, The Painter's Wife is one of my favorite missions, but I wouldn't under any circumstances recommend it to someone new as they would just get overwhelmed. I'm not entirely sure what can be done about it. Maybe a note regarding the mission's size and difficulty in the mission download menu?
  20. Fantastic mission! Of all the 2.10 releases, I was looking forward to this one the most, and it delivered. One question:
  21. It also sounds like a choice between "Every mission should have save rooms" and "Save rooms should not appear at all." I hope that's not the case.
  22. I really hope this'll be an occasional gimmick rather than a feature every mission has from now on.
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