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Hmm, something does look familiar about it to me. Maybe it was only used in certain books or certain notes lying around? Here's the post I got it from: http://forums.ionstorm.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=355674

Don't use realtime render...go into the game for god's sake. Much less memory intensive.

The big question is figuring out when to make these sacrifices and why. I'm intending on using a few more brushes than what we saw in Id's maps because Thief is a much slower game and can probably afford a slight framerate drop in comparison. We have this awesome engine at our disposal and all, so of course we should take advantage of it and do things we haven't seen in any Thief game to date....we just gotta use some common sense and think some stuff out. From what I've seen Doom 3 uses about 4000-7000 brushes per map, with usually about 200-400 on display in a single scene (an admittedly pulled-out-of-my-ass estimation) . I plan on using about that same amount of brushes, maybe a little more if the memory requirements aren't too high, and about at most 700 of em onscreen at once. Since the engine can handle that amount you don't have to worry about making any threadbare rooms to save on performance, but to be on the safe side I wouldn't go over that mark. For a quick example here...say you're in a bedroom that's made up of about 150 brushes...you could go ahead and throw a nice transluscent window in there and not worry about choking your graphics card...but if you're in a giant ass entryroom with a grand staircase I'd throw curtains over the windows to keep from drawing what's outside and adding to the burden. lol, kind of a longwinded and sorta preachy post just to say what everyone pretty much already knows, but I wanted to throw it out anyway just to show how I plan on doing the maps.

I have no doubt about that. And while seeing a full courtyard through a transparent pane of glass is undeniably cool, you always have to take performance issues into consideration. You might have so much detail down there that an opaque window would be the better option. I'd rather go with highly detailed areas that are somewhat closed off from each other, IE you can't see inside a house from outside or outside from the inside, than sparse open areas. Visportals can help with this a little bit, but a few sacrifices will have to be made to make sure it runs well for everybody. I'm not saying we can't use transparent windows, we'll just have to be selective about how we use em. I remember a map for Vamp I made that had almost 2000 brushes on display in a single screen...ran great on my comp, but it crashed the game for alot of other people. Since then I've tried learning how to keep something that looks good in check with it's performance.

I'm like "Why wasnt the mask in the original game??" That's how much I support it. Look at what Ninja wear. Only just the eyes are visible. Cause white skin really glows in the dark. I've always wondered why Garrett never bothered with a face mask. And then of course, it's easier to implement... When something has this many good reasons, it's a sign.

Doom 3 comes packaged with the level editor in the executable. All you have to do to access it is rightclick on the Doom 3 shortcut, click on properties, and add "com_allowConsole 1 +set r_fullscreen 0 +editor" in the target box after the quotation marks. But if you mean how we've made all the test maps, well...we've got lots of stuff down in the (currently?) hidden sections of the forums that go through it all step by step. It's a long process that'll probably bore the hell out of everyone not interested in the technical side of the mod. And yeah, the SDK will be free. As for the Garrett model...I think DeepOmega has been doing it in 3DSMax, not too sure though.

Hello, I offered my help on the coding side on the old forums. Until the SDK comes out, a lot of the stuff I'd like to get started on will have to wait. As a result, I was only periodically checking the old boards, and only just now saw the message regarding this move. I'm still more than willing to offer my help on the coding side. I'm mostly interested in helping with AI, and movement code (Mantling, run/walk/sneak/crouch modifications). I'm also willing to help anywhere else that requires it. Even Art. Sorry for not posting anything for a while, but until the SDK comes out, a large number of things are simply speculation at this point. -oofnish

Hi there guys! This is Jim from DoomCast.com. I've been talking to Fingernail and offered him hosting and some space on our forums! Just wanted to say hello and meet the people who are going to bring out this awsome thief mod! I still remember the first time I played thief, lol, getting chased around the first manor and scrambling up a rope to hide hahaha Hopefully this mod turns out great! Anyway, gtg Jim Doomcast

I mean how would you get your own into the game?

I sent a PM to Friendly today. He's the admin of thief2.de and a works as a professional game developer. He was interested in our mod, however he just starts modelling - normally he does leveldesign and textures. but I believe he would be able to do some furniture and stuff.

Hey there, I see you already have a few artists signed up for the "DarkMod," but please let me know if you'd like me to assist in any way. I'd like to help out with the artwork, if possible. Here's my website, showcasing some of my artwork: <link removed> All the artwork is done free-hand (not tracing). Even though I was referencing original artwork on most of the examples, I can create my own stuff, too. To help explain the 1st drawing, that one was done with colored pencils. To help explain the 2nd picture, the following original drawing was provided to me first. I went into PhotoShop and enhanced it to create that 2nd pic on my site: <link removed> To help explain the 3rd picture shown, the following photo is where I got the original Mickey: <link removed> (I made the CGI-looking background free-hand with PhotoShop.) Also, I did the Flash animation at the top of my site completely on my own. All the graphics used in the animation are my own, created in PhotoShop CS. The sounds, on the other hand, actually came from the Tron 2.0 video game; ones that I particulary liked and wanted to use for my animation. I can help create any concept artwork or finalized artwork, such as for maps, characters, weapons or anything like that. I don't have any 3-D computer modeling experience, but I have PhotoShop CS which I'm very familiar with using. I've also worked quite a bit with "dEdit" (editing tool for Tron 2.0 game) and messed around in Blender a little, but not much. Here are a couple Thief "funnies" I did: "Deadly Shadows": <link removed> For the "Blue Arrows" Controversy: <link removed> I also have a Roland XP-50 keyboard that I might be able to help produce sound effects with, if needed. I think I'd be great at voice work, as well, but I don't have any special audio equipment so am not sure how that would be accomplished. Regardless, I just wanted to let you know I'm out here if you need any help. Thanks for your consideration! - Darkness_Falls

Okay, I've started resizing and once again have come to realise just how freakishly small everything is supposed to be in the game... 512x512 isn't a massive texture by UT2k4 standards....but Doom 3 shrinks everything down to an obscenely small size that we might as well reduce the sizes down to 256x256 just to make everything easier to fit... Just check this out... That's the actual size of the texture vs. how big it needs to be. An amazing difference if you ask me.

I'm not a part of the Dark Mod team actually, I can't code, do models or textures anyway. Kinda dedicated to Black Cat Games aswell... I'm just hosting the forums for Fingernail and the crew.

Gonna play devils advocate for a sec... The Thief 3 SDK can have levels at least almost as large as what we saw in Thief 2 assuming that ISA didn't build a memory cap into the editor itself...which I don't believe they did. But for everthing else Doom 3 is a much better engine. Considering how versatile the SDK is apparently gonna be, it doesn't seem to be a matter of if the engine can handle a Thief-like game, but rather if we have the skills necessary to make it handle it. Course if there is one thing the TTLG crew is good at it's making some amazing stuff with clunky and limited tools, if the T3 editor is released we'll see some great FM's no matter how awesome or crappy it is. But no matter what happens we'll still be over here working on Darkmod simply...well...I guess cuz we want to and it's fun.

Quake 3's Source was never released. Wolf 3d, all of the Doom's, hexen 2 and Quake 2 have. We are discussing Game Source, which is the source that comes with the SDK's, not the full engine source itself. From what I have read. Quake 3 MIGHT be GPLed by the end of 2004.

Hey there Subjective Effect! Good to see you popping in. Even if there were to be a Thief DS level editor I don't think it should deter us from our goal. Thief deadly shadows is a fun game, but in many ways it lacks a certain thiefness. The early concept shots that we have on display here have captured the look of the previous games but with updated graphics. I think once things fall into place with the SDK the atmosphere will follow. It already seems to be there in the screen shots. Since I'm in early prep for a Thief 2 fan mission I'm primed to get some voice sets done for the Dark Mod. I'm thinking I'll do two versions as I'm recording to save some time and that way should a Deadly shadows editor ever arrive they can be used just as easily with that.

The problem with T3 is, that they changed the palette, they changed the look and feel of the houses and they changed the mood. Basically they changed the entire artistic style. It is consistent throughout the game but not consistent with the series. Actually this warm glowing feeling is one of the things I always loved in T1/T2. I just loved just to walk though some manors because of that.

Renz: Nice as your room is, and 1337 though your skillz be, there are some problems. Did you test the map in game mode? You can't have done, seeing as it is not buildable in it's current state. Even though I added an end wall, it still 'leaked', because the other walls were too thin. Make them thicker. And no gaps. Also, the scale is a bit off, as seen here: I know walk-in fireplaces might be considered a luxury. Anyway, otherwise it looks great. Put in a scientist for Great Scalability.

I think it's important that the texture artists try to work with a certain colour palette - it seems they already have the warm fire feel for the indoors lit with torches. Now out doors should be decided on soon, like strong blues and purples or greens maybe (and yellows, for the lights), or something, like the Thief 3 concept artwork. All good artists know that less is more. By that I mean, if the scene is filled with all sorts of colours, it loses its identity, but if there is a specific theme going on, it shows and it really has its own character. People were saying "This is what Thief 3 SHOULD have looked like!" about Renzatic's screen shots, and I beleive the colour palette is why. We (well, the artists) should strive for a unique, and unified feel for this Thief world. You can see good examples of this in a lot of 2D games. I think 3D games are only just catching up there, as the tools let artists express themselves more easily - a lot of older 3D game all sort of look alike, but now, with some of the nicer looking games, you can take a screen shot of it, and it is so easy to tell straight away that it is from that game, and not another game of that type. I think a good example is Need For Speed Underground. All the neon colours glowing in the dark, and the motion blurring. It's not the most realistic racing game out there (check out some of those new rally games), but it is certainly one of the prettiest, and best looking racing games out there. (If I have people disagree with me about NFSU, then maybe I chose a bad example, but I hope my point gets across all the same)

Oh god, not the sword vs dagger again. The size argument just doesn't work, since we also have a thief walking around with a longbow and quiver full of arrows, and who can carry a dozen goblets, plates and paintings around with him on missions. No one is talking about having a thief with a five foot broadsword, either. But a short sword makes sense (and is also the classic D&D Thief weapon, btw). Arguments for a (small) sword: 1. Continuity. Two of the three Thief Games have Garrett using a sword. (and interestingly enough, even in T3 the other Thieves in the game had swords) 2. Versatility. Garrett doesn't just break into houses, he also travels through underground ruins, crypts and pagan forests. Any character who risks battling zombies, giant spiders, treebeasts and burricks is going to want something longer than a dagger. 3. Gameplay. Fighting with a dagger comes down to clicking fast and circle-strafing. In terms of gameplay it was not enjoyable at all, at least for me. The sword fighting in T1&2 allowed for parrying and fencing, and was more fun to do. Now, I suppose we could allow for both options...although I can't think of a situation where a dagger would be preferable to either a short sword or a blackjack. But please, if we decide not to use a sword, let's not do it because it's "realistic".

I agree. Call me a nerd, I dont care, but I play D&D. And out of all the thieves I have played and played with, none have ever used a sword or anything bigger then that. Its just not the way of the thief. AND since we are basically recreating T3, which had a dagger, should we include that in our mod. I mean think about stealth. How stealthy are you with a big blade out in the open glinting any available knife vs. the use of a dagger covertly tucked away from all view. Plus a sword is a little bit conspicuous when you are walking around town. Think about all of the movies you have seen with thieves....how many can you recall sneaking around with a big sword?

I've got your ceiling in the game, but I can't seem to get it to fit in with the rest of the room. That style of ceiling is great for rooms with only a little emblishment along the walls, otherwise the tiles conflict with the positions of the posts and it starts looking funky (I'm pretty anal when it comes to mapping...in case you can't tell ). I'm gonna try and do it with different layers of tiles, smaller ones along the edge and bigger ones towards the center so it'll line up properly. Edit: ere we go The normalmap needs a bit more depth to flesh it out, but it looks alright. The ceiling looks too flat in comparison to the rest of the room, though. I'll have to fix that up.

great work man I hope I get D3 tomorrow in the computer store, where I buy my new computer components. If everything works fine I'll be able to play D3 on highest-details in 2 days BTW: as soon as you've got your ceiling we should post this screen in the ttlg-forums, I think people will be really impressed.

Yup, Dom, Blackthief needs to get the game so he can have as much fun with it as I am. Yet another quick update, this time with BT's blue windows in tow. I really need to learn how to make light materials, once I do I could get the shadows being cast on the floor to mimic the window perfectly and get a nice crosshatch shadow setup going on.. Whoop But as it is it looks pretty alright. Needs furniture and light fixtures...and a ceiling still...and maybe some more tweaks on the lighting...but anway, there it is.

There's nothing wrong with the window, looks perfectly thiefy to me. A moon? Never! No time to modify. Springwheel's stuff's perfect anyway. (Runs away with the artwork to the Imperium forums.)