Miami Holiday

[Yegg]

america is a great country

(puts on my TNT belt)

LOL

 

(well put, and this is from someone not especially political or nationalistic)

Thanks Sneaksie I'm not particulary political or nationalistic either. I'm just trying to look at the whole picture.

 

That doesn't change anything. It's not Bush who is killing people in Iraq, or in Afghanistan. It's the soldiers. The very people that you claim may not support Bush. O yeah, I know about chain of command and duty and all this, but that doesn't change a thing. If my son is killed from an american bomb do you really think I start thinkin like "O my, the poor pilots. They may not eve have known what they killed, and they are forced to do it because Bush ordered it." Do you think it works that way? It doesn't. Just as German people were condemened because of Hitlers actions, American people are also condemened by THEIR politicians actions. The politicians may rule, but it's still the people that do their bidding.

I said to berate Iraq policy all you want; that's different than the policy on fingerprinting people entering the country. You said you have no respect for a country that marks you as a criminal even before you set foot there. I was merely saying 'think outside the box.' What are some things you would do as a country's leader to protect its citizens if you were put in the same position? Is fingerprinting people entering your country one of the options you might consider (and possibly implement) as you try to sort things out? Over time, I think things will mellow out with regards to fingerprinting and the such, but in the meantime I'm just saying to try and understand a little before you lash out in anti-American hatred over this stupid paranoia policy. Not visiting the USA because of the fingerprinting thing is fine; but don't let this one little 'knee-jerk reaction policy' be a huge contributing factor to you being anti-America. Let the Iraq stuff be, if you want; but not fingerprinting.

 

They are trying the same here. Even today I heard some news again where the Home Scretary claimed that a terrorist attack inside germany is not a question of IF it's just a question of WHEN. Thus sowing fear in order to get more people to agree to the "neccessary"restrictions to protect them.

Good, I think this is what you need to experience first-hand in your country so you understand the plight, feelings and sentiment of individual citizens in the USA. It sounds like your country is beginning to go through the stages that Bush put his people through to create fear, gain support and implement stricter 'patriotism' laws. Get prepared to experience the nonsense many American citizens have gone through the past few years, and decide for yourself if you appreciate it when other nations of the world hate you because of what your government is doing.

Edited January 28, 2006 by Yegg

[sparhawk]

I said to berate Iraq policy all you want; that's different than the policy on fingerprinting people entering the country.

 

That's not different. You think it it did matter, wether some Nazi officer was sitting in a KZ and torturing people himself, or wether it was 'just' a clerk back in the homeland that 'just' signs the appropriate papers?

 

You said you have no respect for a country that marks you as a criminal even before you set foot there. I was merely saying 'think outside the box.' What are some things you would do as a country's leader to protect its citizens if you were put in the same position?

 

Protect against what? Do you know how terrorism work? Most suicide bombers are not even known before they do their bombing run, who exactly do you think will fingerprints help to catch them? The terrorists that did 911 were living in Germany as normal students. No record, no fingerprints. They came to america as tourists. What exactly do the fingerprints help?

 

Not visiting the USA because of the fingerprinting thing is fine; but don't let this one little 'knee-jerk reaction policy' be a huge contributing factor to you being anti-America. Let the Iraq stuff be, if you want; but not fingerprinting.

 

It's not that alone, it's the overall policy that apalls me. Thigns like fingerprints and the likes are jsut the tip of the iceberg.

 

Good, I think this is what you need to experience first-hand in your country so you understand the plight, feelings and sentiment of individual citizens in the USA.

 

Aparently you think that USA is the only country that had terrorists attacks. And if this were the case, don't you ever think about the WHY? Why is the USA attacked and other countries not? Could it be that it actually has something to do with their policy and way of thinking?

 

Tell you what. When I watch movies I know that they are not neccessarily representive of the majority of the poeple, but they refelct a trend in the way of thinking. Now funnily enough, only yesterday I watched a B-movie where the USA was covered with ice. The hero of the story tried to get somehwere to a ship. The very first thing he did was NOT to look for food, supplies or other important stuff, the very first thing he grabbed was - you got - guns and ammo. Another movie, based on true story. In the 80ies there was a huge bank robbery where the bad guys had AK47 kevlar wests while the police only had 9mm handguns. Obviously they didn't stand a chance against them, but with enough force they managed to take them down after forty minutes of shooting. The result of this was NOT that the authorities started to think about how to prevent such things next time by i.e. limiting access to such wepaons, the result was that the police got equally heavy weapons within two weeks after. Another story. Apparently in american schools it is quite normal to have guards sitting there, checking the KIDS for guns with all kind of hi-tech equipment. Don't you think this way of thinking is crazy? It is not prevented that something like this is going to happen in the first place, instead the 'good' guys are just stocking up their arsenal as well. The access to weapons is not limited, instead you 'protect' yourself by wearing bulletproof cloths and hoping to net get hit (figuratevily speaking). And then you wonder why you get attacked? In all my live I never felt the need to wear a gun, and I was never threatened by one, no matter in what part of a city I have been. Why do you think this is so?

 

You know why I would never wear a gun with me? If I really get robbed on the streets and I pull a gun, guess what happens. It doesn't protect me. Quite on the contrary it would cause the situation to escalate more, because if I threaten a person with a gun, the chances are much higher that it will result in violence, because the stakes are higher then.

 

It sounds like your country is beginning to go through the stages that Bush put his people through to create fear, gain support and implement stricter 'patriotism' laws. Get prepared to experience the nonsense many American citizens have gone through the past few years, and decide for yourself if you appreciate it when other nations of the world hate you because of what your government is doing.

 

Yes, of course they tryo to do the same here, and guess how they rational this. They use Bush and his tactics and arguments to achieve the same.

[Domarius]

I think they had trouble removing guns. Too much underground stuff or something. I'm sure someone else here knows more about it.

 

The movie you were referring to was "The Day After Tomorrow." Sort of american and silly in parts, but I just love the science of it and making those phenomena into "action" type sequences, like the super-cooled air - very scarey.

 

Anyway, I didn't realise - but now that you point out that the first thing he grabs was guns and ammo instead of food and water, that's kind of funny But after hearing about all the looting after hurricane Katrina in New Orlenes, I wouldn't blame him.

[sparhawk]

I think they had trouble removing guns. Too much underground stuff or something. I'm sure someone else here knows more about it.

 

Tha's no reason, just an excuse.

 

The movie you were referring to was "The Day After Tomorrow." Sort of american and silly in parts, but I just love the science of it and making those phenomena into "action" type sequences, like the super-cooled air - very scarey.

 

That was not the movie, but it was similar in theme.

 

Anyway, I didn't realise - but now that you point out that the first thing he grabs was guns and ammo instead of food and water, that's kind of funny But after hearing about all the looting after hurricane Katrina in New Orlenes, I wouldn't blame him.

 

That's the point. I said, it's just a movie, but I think it still references to the real thing. Somehow I doubt that something similar would happen here in middle europe, and seeing how poeple react when something like that happens, it's not only idel speculation either.

 

Actually in such situations grabbing guns might be sensible, but it certainly wouldn't be the highest priory. You need foo and shelter and basic things to survive. Guns are not really things that you absolutely need to surive (unless you happen to be in US territory of course).

 

It seems that the US culture is based primarily on violence. And some other thing I just remembered which I also consider as typical for that culture. Yesterday I watched some show on MTV. Actually it was just coincidence, because it was only a few minutes. There were some young guys doing some fun athletics, and it was all more in a kind of friendly competition. At the end, the winner was determined. The reporter who run the moderation of the show took both of the guys and then he shoved the second one off saying something like "And you go out ofview because I can't stand loosers. HAHA!" All in 'friendly' joking of course, but nerverthless I considered this as quit typical as well judging from other sources. No room for 'loosers' and everything 'below' the first place is a looser. There is only room for on guy and that has to be the best one. With a mindset like this, I don't really expect much competence in the area of social interactions.

[Ishtvan]

Yes, clearly B-movies produced by a country are the best way to judge the citizens. I'm sure I could find some bad movies from Germany and attribute all the characteristics of characters in the movie to an entire population of 82 million individuals as well, but I don't think that argument works.

 

The bank robbery incident in LA that you're referring to actually caused quite a lot of disgust and efforts for political change. I'm sure though from your detailed cultural research, you imagine that everyone just stared around slack-jawed and cheering the bank robbery violence, perhaps lighting a cigarrette from a burned out police vehicle and giving a rebel yell before kissing a big-breasted blonde girl next to them.

 

The issue of taking people's guns away is not so simple though. Many view the constitutional right to bear arms as one of those freedoms that you are so worried about the gov't taking away. One of the reasons the right to bear arms was included in the constitution was so that citizens would have the ability to overthrow the government if it became oppressive.

 

Personally, I think full-auto assault rifles is taking it too far, because you're more likely to cause collateral damage even if trying to protect yourself, but many people think the distinction is arbitrary.

 

the result was that the police got equally heavy weapons within two weeks after.

Hmm, that's odd that you're complaining about police with heavy weapons, because when I look around in the U.S., our regular police are still carrying pistols, and often additional non-deadly weapons such as tasers. When I go to Europe, I see regular police on street corners standing around with MP5s.

 

Apparently in american schools it is quite normal to have guards sitting there, checking the KIDS for guns with all kind of hi-tech equipment. Don't you think this way of thinking is crazy? It is not prevented that something like this is going to happen in the first place, instead the 'good' guys are just stocking up their arsenal as well.

 

First of all, what do you mean it is not preventing something from happening in the first place? That's the whole point of metal detectors at schools, to make sure that people don't bring in guns in the first place and prevent something bad from happening.

 

Second, this is not true at most schools in the US. It's true mostly at massively overcrowded inner-city public schools, where some failure of the education system has already taken place. I agree it is depressing nonetheless, and I don't think anyone in America thinks of this is a good thing.

[obscurus]

Some things that make me dislike the US:

 

*Highest level of gun violence in the world. Canadians actually have more guns per capita, but they mostly use them as protection from grizly bears, not for shooting each other.

 

*Largest collection of nuclear weapons in the world. Even designing a nuclear weapon counts as a crime against humanity as far as I am concerned, but building so many and actually using them is reprehensible beyond description.

 

*Raping the third world. The US consumes over 80% of the worlds resources, yet is only a small proportion of the global population. American 'aid' is not given to help, but to furhter cripple and bankrupt small countries with unpayable debt. American policies of interfering with and impoverishing other nations have led to millions of young muslims etc who are so filled with despair and hatred for America, and by extension all westerners, that they are willing to blow themselves and as many westerneers as they can find to simithereens.

 

*World's biggest polluter (though on a per capita basis, my own country is sadly the worst offender here). The American habit of gas guzzling V8 Chevrolets and SUVs, seemingly limitless cheap oil, collosal waste and an obesity epidemic don't exactly endear the rest of the world.

 

 

*Crappy movies that consist of shooting guns, killing the bad guys and 497 car chases, shooting more guns, and blowing things up.

 

There are some things I like about America, but sadly they are overwhelmed with all of the shit that flows out of the country. I'm not anit-US per se, but I'm definately not pro-USA, you guys have a lot of mess to clean up.

 

EDIT: Just in case you think I'm terribly biased, I think most countries are pretty awful, including my own in many ways.

Edited January 30, 2006 by obscurus

[SneaksieDave]

Spar, the practice of getting information and dislike for a country and its people based on television shows is alarming.

 

I'd like to know your suggestion for the bank robbery scenario? Laws prohibiting such guns? Yes, because bank robbers are known to obey the law...

 

No, US schools with guards and metal detectors are very much the rarity and not the norm. Philly or West Trenton, Chicago or LA? Perhaps. But not the other 99% of the country.

 

I don't choose to keep or feel the need for a gun, either. And wow, I've been to Camden, Philly, NYC, etc. I don't see how some scum inner city gangs and lowlifes indulging in violent crime makes the rest of Americans bad people deserving condemnation.

 

With regard to the "looser" show, I would suggest you're really, really reading too much into a television show that is trying to be edgy to get ratings and stay in production so they can keep getting paid. I'd be willing to bet the same scene involved fabric-straining tits and blonde hair too?

 

With regard to attacks, I strongly doubt the US is targetted because of any TV shows or gun laws. The US is targetted because of the government's stupid involvement with the rest of the world's shitty problems (some which it helped create), and it's desire to influence and control valuable assets (e.g., oil). I personally wish the US would just stay the hell out of it all and let the goddamn rest of the world blow itself up, if they so choose. But even that won't work, because the whole world is a community. If the US didn't get involved in anything, people like Saddam and Bin Laden (whom the US helped create) would do whatever they want to others (and they have) and the whole world might be saying "Heil, Hitler!" right now. So the US is truly damned if it does, damned if it doesn't. Sometimes it gets involved for the right reasons; sometimes it gets involved for the wrong reasons. That's arguably better than some countries which sit on their asses and do nothing, badmouthing everyone and turning their Noses up to the world, while bending over and letting aggressors walk all over them.

 

I'm definitely not defending a lot of the US government's often corrupt and disgusting practices (I'm neither political nor nationalistic, remember? ), but I am hoping to correct some misinformed judging of the residents who happen to live here.

[Darkness_Falls]

So much for Miami, Macsen!! Why'd you have to instigate another political debate

 

Tell you what. When I watch movies I know that they are not neccessarily representive of the majority of the poeple, but they refelct a trend in the way of thinking.

So what about video games? Should we... nay, you... stop working on the Dark Mod for fear the project is apparently reflective of some sort of violent trend, to which you're contributing? I don't see how you could exclude video games from your worries of negative media. You are personally on the same level as some of this American media you keep talking about; yet you live in Germany. Yet who in their right mind would begin to be anti-German simply because you're working on a violent video game filled with KOs and medieival bloodshed? Don't judge a book by its cover. I've seen plenty of foreign films and television shows, including European ones, to know America's not the only country with whacked-out media. If I judged those countries by the twisted things seen in the media, I'm sure I'd be wrong.

 

It seems that the US culture is based primarily on violence. And some other thing I just remembered which I also consider as typical for that culture. Yesterday I watched some show on MTV... At the end, the winner was determined. The reporter who run the moderation of the show took both of the guys and then he shoved the second one off saying something like "And you go out ofview because I can't stand loosers. HAHA!" All in 'friendly' joking of course, but nerverthless I considered this as quit typical as well judging from other sources. No room for 'loosers' and everything 'below' the first place is a looser. There is only room for on guy and that has to be the best one. With a mindset like this, I don't really expect much competence in the area of social interactions.

You think we're based primarily in violence, huh? Like we have nothing better to do? Wow. You're losing touch, man Stop watching American media, LOL. After being on TDM team for so long, I woud've thought you would've seen that on an individual level, everyone is very similar. Egos get in the way, debates are commonplace, put-downs happen regularly, etc. Yet we're from all across the globe. Go figure! Judging by how everyone acts, it seems like you would've thought we all lived in America!

[c777]

america seems great

(runs away from CIA agents)

[sparhawk]

Yes, clearly B-movies produced by a country are the best way to judge the citizens. I'm sure I could find some bad movies from Germany and attribute all the characteristics of characters in the movie to an entire population of 82 million individuals as well, but I don't think that argument works.

 

I did not say that I get my judgment from B-movies. I said that they are a reflection of the culture, and a lot of the stereotypes presented there are references to the actual situation. And it matches up with what I see from other sources as well, like newspapers, TV, reports, internet news and so on.

 

Just to give you an example what I mean. I noticed in almost every TV series and many other movies as well, no matter what it's topic were, that you constantly could hear police sirens as a background noise in scenes where it had no real relevance, except giving the scene a more believable atmosphere. So you see people talking in their office somewhere, i.e about tax, or some other, totally unrelated topic, and still the director thought it necessary to include a police sirene noise as an ambient. Since this is almost a constant it starts me wondering why this happens. Do all the movie producer do this because they have some hidden agreement? Do they do this because it's a kind of fashion? Something like a fad? Might be. Personally I think it is done because it actuall IS such a normal noise, that you would almost expect something like that in a movie that is staged in a bigger city like New York or similar. On the contrary, hearing a such a noise in Austria or Germany is a rare occurence. Consequently if you watch a movie or series produced here you never hear that as an ambience. It wouldn't be totally out of place, because of course you can hear it every now and then, but apparently it is not strong enough that it would be thought to be neccessary to be included in a normal office scene.

Another case: In many american movies, that play in parts of the city that are more rundown, but not neccessarily slums, you can still see often people hanging around on the streets which appear almost living there. It's often part of the background of a street scene. In many european movies you don't see something like that, simply because in general this is not part of the regular city appearance. Even though movies are fictious, in most cases they try to be realistic with their surrounding (not the story). And in trying to be realistic they depict, what is a common environment. At least that's what I believe. So if I see a constant pattern about particular issues in a lot of movies, I have to assume that this pattern exists, because it is actual part of the culture.

 

The bank robbery incident in LA that you're referring to actually caused quite a lot of disgust and efforts for political change. I'm sure though from your detailed cultural research, you imagine that everyone just stared around slack-jawed and cheering the bank robbery violence, perhaps lighting a cigarrette from a burned out police vehicle and giving a rebel yell before kissing a big-breasted blonde girl next to them.

 

To tell you a story that was NOT out of a movie, but from a girlfriend who had an uncle in New York. Once she came back from a vacation there, she told me an experience she had. Her uncle lives in a flat that is just around the corner of a very bad part of the city. He himself doesn't live there, but he is in close contact because of the vicinity and he can't afford much more. So she went out with him because they wanted to buy some stuff, and they suddenly saw a black man watching something. Suddenly his uncle told her she should take care, and if he tells her, she should get down on the street. She was quite afraid, but nothing happened then. Still, now I wonder why he tolde her that. Did he do it for a joke? He also explained to her, when she was there the first time, that she has to be carefull how she should react in certain situations. Of course I'm aware that movies are not neccessarily a good representation of their environment, but then again they ARE a representation and especially if ti matches with info from other sources, I have to believe that there is some truth in them.

 

The issue of taking people's guns away is not so simple though. Many view the constitutional right to bear arms as one of those freedoms that you are so worried about the gov't taking away. One of the reasons the right to bear arms was included in the constitution was so that citizens would have the ability to overthrow the government if it became oppressive.

 

LOL! Now that is a good reason. If something like this happens, people will get their weapon, no matter what the law is.

 

 

Hmm, that's odd that you're complaining about police with heavy weapons, because when I look around in the U.S., our regular police are still carrying pistols, and often additional non-deadly weapons such as tasers. When I go to Europe, I see regular police on street corners standing around with MP5s.

 

Don't know where you see that. The only place wheer I can see police with more then a Glock is when they have guard duty at special places, like jewish churches, or some embassies. Apart from this you barely can see them.

 

First of all, what do you mean it is not preventing something from happening in the first place? That's the whole point of metal detectors at schools, to make sure that people don't bring in guns in the first place and prevent something bad from happening.

 

The point is not to preventing people to enter the shool with guns. My point is that they bring guns with them in the first place so that you actually NEED metal detectors.

 

Second, this is not true at most schools in the US. It's true mostly at massively overcrowded inner-city public schools, where some failure of the education system has already taken place. I agree it is depressing nonetheless, and I don't think anyone in America thinks of this is a good thing.

 

Yet nothing really is done abuot it, because weapons are so important that it is apparently considered better to place metal detectors in shools, instead of preventing people frmo getting them in the first place.

 

I really wonder how poeple can think that gun solves anything, but it seems the weapon industry is strong enough and the ads make people believe in them.

[sparhawk]

Spar, the practice of getting information and dislike for a country and its people based on television shows is alarming.

 

That in a thread about the US, where the television is considered something like the second coming?

 

And no. I didn't get my dislike from TV-series and movies, but they support the overall picture, that I get from the politics. Well, teh average american 'humourus' TV series, doesn't excalty help though. It's really small wonder that they felt the need to include laughter in the TV just to tell people when they made a joke.

 

I'd like to know your suggestion for the bank robbery scenario? Laws prohibiting such guns? Yes, because bank robbers are known to obey the law...

 

Obviously we have bank robberies here as well. But the access to guns is already pretty hard. At least I never heard about a bank robbery here where the criminal used something like an AK47. In Austria the law was changed some years ago. Previously you could buy guns under certain conditions anyway, but then it was added that, if you buy a gun, you have to wait at least 24 hours, before the gun is actually given to you. The reason is, that most murders are done in a state of high emotions, and it is cooled down after some time. Obviously this doesn't prevent bank robbery, because they might plan it ahead, but then again, I don't think that such bank robberies are planned in minute detail. And it's the overall access to guns, that matters. That you will always have some people who get them nevertheless can not be prevented, and for such occasions it is ok if the police has the appropriate answer.

 

I don't choose to keep or feel the need for a gun, either. And wow, I've been to Camden, Philly, NYC, etc. I don't see how some scum inner city gangs and lowlifes indulging in violent crime makes the rest of Americans bad people deserving condemnation.

 

That's only a small part. As I said, I don't base my dislike just on that little information, because the biggest impact is the politics that I see from your countries, and that is not changed by some TV shows.

 

With regard to the "looser" show, I would suggest you're really, really reading too much into a television show that is trying to be edgy to get ratings and stay in production so they can keep getting paid. I'd be willing to bet the same scene involved fabric-straining tits and blonde hair too?

 

More or less.

 

With regard to attacks, I strongly doubt the US is targetted because of any TV shows or gun laws.

 

I never said that.

 

The US is targetted because of the government's stupid involvement with the rest of the world's shitty problems (some which it helped create), and it's desire to influence and control valuable assets (e.g., oil). I personally wish the US would just stay the hell out of it all and let the goddamn rest of the world blow itself up, if they so choose.

 

I doubt that the world would go to waste just because the US suddenly wouldnt meddle anymore.

 

But even that won't work, because the whole world is a community. If the US didn't get involved in anything, people like Saddam and Bin Laden (whom the US helped create) would do whatever they want to others (and they have) and the whole world might be saying "Heil, Hitler!" right now.

 

Hitler may be a good example. If the US is concerned about dictatorships and evil people, why did they not invade China? Because Saddam is an easy target, and also Nazi Germany was NOT invaded because the US felt the urge to do something good. It was simply business. They had business with Nazi Germany after all as well. And if Hitler wouldn't have choosen to conquer everything, we might still be saying "Heil, Hitler!", because the US certainly wouldn't have come to our rescue. In fact, if you read history books, the reason why Hitler got so far was because the other nations, never really concerned themself with the inner problems of Germany. If Hitler would have stopped at the part of France he got, and Austria, we would have a nice Nazi regime in place and no amount of killing jews would have changed that. The UK got involved because Hitler attacked Poland, which the UK had ties with and at that point the US didn't bother at all. So don't try to give me the "US saved our asses." because they didn't. And if they duid, it was more as side effect and not because they wanted to help. I'm still happy though that Hitler was broken before my time, because I sure wouldn't want to live in such an environment.

 

I'm definitely not defending a lot of the US government's often corrupt and disgusting practices (I'm neither political nor nationalistic, remember? ), but I am hoping to correct some misinformed judging of the residents who happen to live here.

 

I'm pretty sure that a lot of people are ok there. After all it's not only stories of violence I hear, there are also other stories, about people who don't even need to lock their houses, because nothign gets stolen. So I know that there are all kind of people there as well as here. Even though I'm not that fond of i.e. Arabian people (from first hand experience - not from movies ), I still know a lot of arabian poeple that are quite nice and I even befriended.

[sparhawk]

So what about video games? Should we... nay, you... stop working on the Dark Mod for fear the project is apparently reflective of some sort of violent trend, to which you're contributing?

 

Every day I pray to god to relieve me of the Dark Mod because of this.

 

I don't see how you could exclude video games from your worries of negative media.

 

Because many video games don't even try to be realistic. If you play Doom there is no resemblence at all, if you ignore the marine soldier thing. But if you watch some TV series, and you watch the background, then this tries to mimic at least some realism. If you consider the Waltons for example. Obviously they are made up and their live as well, but what about the environment they live in. Is everything made up? Is the architectural style of the farm houses made up? Take another series like "Emergency Room", or "Sex in the City" or the CSI series. It doesn't really matter which one. Is everything made up in there? I doubt it. Of course there is a lot made up, but everything? If they are on a city scene, which parts are made up? The caers, the houses, the poeple? And to what degree? I guess if I would go to the districts where CSI is staged, they would pretty much look like in the series, because they try to look realistic to give an impression as if the series COULD actually take place there. So at what point does it become unrealistic?

 

After being on TDM team for so long, I woud've thought you would've seen that on an individual level, everyone is very similar.

 

Of course. I'm not talking about personal level, but from a bigger perspective. This reminds me a bit of that commone phrase you can hear here. In Austria there are a lot of jugoslawian people, because they were 'imported' a lot in the 70ies. So there is some tendency to diss them. Now if you sit in a up and it comes to politics obviously it happens that they are also the topic, and then people start to rant about them. But if you happen to do such a discussion who is himself a jugoslawian guess what the standard phrase is. "I'm talking about jugoslawian in general, but YOU out of all jugoslawian are a quite nice guy and I like. You are of course excluded." So obviously, members of the Dark Mod team are also excluded from my views, because I knot that they are in general nice poeple, even though they may happen to be americans.

[SneaksieDave]

I'm curious - does Germany still have that quasi-ban on violence in games? I remember years ago, some violent games replaced humans with robots, and red blood with green. Possibly the Dooms/Quakes, but I can't be sure, definitely Carmageddon... something else I'm forgetting. Or is all that over by now?

[sparhawk]

It's not over it's getting worse. They got a system in place now which assigns rating according to age. So Doom 3 is only for 18 and other games are rated, depending on some obscure halluzinations of the guy in charge. This sytems has a nice side effect. Old games like Pacman, are now rated 18. The reason is, that any game not explicitly rated is automatically rated 18, and since nobody will bother to let old games rate (because of course it costs money), they are only available for adults. This does not only include such violent games like Pacman, but also such horrible stuff like Barbie (for the C64) and others. I can understand this for games like Princess Barbie though.

 

Now some politicians from the black party, they don't consider this to be enough, and they want to ban all violence in comupter games. They created a program that is named roughly "For the better of families". The reduce money on unimportant things like school, kindergarten, social places for teenies and the like, to have more funding for such important tasks like violence in computer games. But of course it's all for the good of the families.

 

If you find sarcasm it might be unintended.

[obscurus]

One thing about guns in the US: people can legally buy guns soley designed for the purpose of killing human beings, or can otherwise obtain them with ridiculous ease. In most civilised countries, such as Australia (well, we are more civilised than the US at least, though our current government's efforts to emulate the US and constant US televison are causing a lot of cultural degeneration), the only guns you can legally buy are ones specifically designed for shooting feral animals or hunting, everything else is heavily restricted to military/police use only. Guns are very difficult to obtain here compared to the USA. After the Martin Bryant killing spree, there was a big gun amnesty, where the government allowed people to turn in illegal weapons without pressing charges, and tons of guns were handed in and melted down.

 

To be fair, in most of the US, you have to wait 5 days before you can take posession of a firearm you have purchased, but illegal/black market guns are available in such abundance that the 5 day cooling off period has little effect on gun violence.

 

The US is one of the worlds biggest manufacturers of land mines, cluster bombs, depleted uranium ordinance and other cruel weapons, and fights tooth and nail to prevent these barbaric weapons from being banned (it has a lot of money to lose). Most civilised countries have banned the manufacture and use of these weapons, which are still killing children, livestock, wildlife and non-combatants all over the world.

 

One of the reason guns are so readily available in the US is the fact that they manufacture and import so many that it is almost impossible to control their distribution and use. A person who makes a weapon that they know full well is designed to murder, and will in all probability be used to for its designed purpose - to kill a human being - is as guilty of that murder as the person who pulls the trigger.

 

Normal police in the UK do not carry guns, and guns are very rare there (the UK also manufactures a shitload of landmines, however).

[Subjective Effect]

It is illegal to own a gun in the UK unless it's for a special reason, that's why we have to few. If it were legal there would be a lot more ownership.

[sparhawk]

I worked on a project for train security. Not security in the sense again humans, but the system that controls the trails and it's switches. With this project we worked together with some american company, and some of our developers had to visit regularly there. When he came back one day he told us, that he met with one of the big bosses of the compiler that we used, and this guy took him to his estate (apparently he was pretty rich), where he had some rockets, they used to shoot on old trucks. Rockets! Well, I think I could get hold of a gun if I absolutely wanted to, but I wouldn't even know where to look to get rockets.

[obscurus]

I've heard of people acquiring things like stinger missiles in the US - if you are rich enough, you can buy almost anything. The US is also responsible for arming various dictators and poor countries who can't afford wars, as well as donating nuclear weapons to dangerously unstable and aggressive states like Israel.

 

Before the first Gulf War, there is a classic piece of footage of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands and smiling with Saddam Hussein, over the US agreement to support the dictator with US weapons and training. Now, of course, those same CIA trained Iraqis are heading up the resistance in Iraq...

 

In parts of Russia it is insanely easy (in principle) to get hold of nuclear weapons, though they are probably in such a delapidated state that they wouldn't function without a lot of work. I don't know if they have upgraded their security in the last ten years or so, but I watched a doco a while back where the journalist visited a Russian base where nuclear weapons were stored - it was guarded by one guard with a bottle of vodka, an AK47 and a couple of alsatians, and a rusty razorwire fence. You wouldn't have had much trouble getting past him to obtain a substantial amount of fissile material. Of course, this is what happens when a former superpower falls from grace, and there are signs in the US economy that it is coming dangerously close to economic collapse. If it does, there are some 30, 000 nukes lying around the US which will become increasingly poorly protected as the budget for maintaining security gets tighter.

[Darkness_Falls]

Take another series like "Emergency Room",

LOL You mean, E.R.?? We call it "ER" here. Not sure I've ever heard it called Emergency Room before. That's cool, though. Is interesting how things change with languages.

 

and this guy took him to his estate (apparently he was pretty rich), where he had some rockets, they used to shoot on old trucks. Rockets!

Maybe they were roman candles, only mistaken as rockets? Like on the 4th of July? (independence day)

 

Okay, to steer away from America now... let me try a deflection tactic: how 'bout that Dark Mod project!! Boy, it sure is coming along nicely, eh?

[Ishtvan]

How would you suggest the US stop sales of weapons on the black market? Wave a magic wand and make all the black markets go away? How about other countries with massive black markets, can they do this too?

[sparhawk]

LOL You mean, E.R.?? We call it "ER" here. Not sure I've ever heard it called Emergency Room before. That's cool, though. Is interesting how things change with languages.

 

E.R. is also used here as the shortcut.

 

But I found a better analogy how I see movies and such relating to a culture.

 

Did you ever watch a carricature? Obviously a carricature is intended to overdraw something, and it is fictional, but at the same time it has enough resemblance to the real situation, person or incidence, that you can realize the real thing behind it. In a similar way I see movies. I know that they are not the real thing, just like a carricature is also not real, but they still keep some realistic stuff. Enough to gain information beyond the story.

 

Problem is I can't express it much better in english.

[sparhawk]

How would you suggest the US stop sales of weapons on the black market? Wave a magic wand and make all the black markets go away? How about other countries with massive black markets, can they do this too?

 

How do you think other countries do it? Does this mean that the USA allows black market weapon sales? You think Germany or Austria also doesn't have a black market? Not on the same scale probably, granted. The question is, why some countries have and some don't. I guess this is not as easily answered though, because it also deals with different mentallity and cultural background.

[OrbWeaver]

It is illegal to own a gun in the UK unless it's for a special reason, that's why we have to few. If it were legal there would be a lot more ownership.

 

Gun ownership for use in shooting clubs used to be legal, until the Dunblane incident (where a gunman went mental in a primary school and shot about 16 children), after which the government had one of their typical knee-jerk "oh the poor little children" episodes and banned the possession of guns.

 

I am not aware that the ban has made any difference to gun crime however, since the process for getting hold of a gun was so rigorous (you had to have a home inspection to make sure it was stored securely, and all sorts of other things) that the criminals were already getting guns on the black market.

[Maximius]

Istvan, one way to stop the black market sales is to stop flooding the world with cheap weaponry. The U.S. is the worlds largest arms manufacturer and it regulary dumps BILLIONS of dollars of arms into the world market. The mere presence of these weapons is a destablizing factor. You may think that some are "picking" on the U.S. in this regard but it really is the 800 lb. gorilla when it comes to weapons. Think of all that money wasted, money that could go to development, education, medicine, you name it, instead it goes to killing people and upsetting political relationships. True, other nations do the same, and they too should stop, but no one does it to the extent that we do. No one.

 

These weapons have no purpose but to kill other people. Once they are in the world, they can easily be turned against us at one point or another. We armed the mujahadeen of Afghanistan against the Soviets, now they use some of those arms against our troops. We sell weaponry all over the world and then we find ourselves facing it at some point or another. So consider, is it worth it for a small group of arms manufacturers to live like kings straddling gigantic multinational corporations while the world is made an increasingly dangerous place? Because thats the real bottom line with selling arms.

[Darkness_Falls]

So much for me trying to change the topic