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Macsen

The Builders And Iran

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Am I the only one who sees some similarity between the Builders/Hammerites and the government of Iran?

 

Both torture prisoners horribly for quite minor offences, both have a 'moral police' that patrol the city at night, both are contemptuous of women... And to clinch it all, at the geographical centre of their faith muslims have a giant stone which they worship!

 

One could see their latest technological strides as a push for Mechanist-like power. :ph34r:

 

(if only the West's environmental policies were more like the pagans)

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The Builders are comparable to most oppressive religiopolitical organisations. The Catholic Church, fundamentalist Islamic groups, fundamentalist Christian groups, the Iranian government, the United States government... ;)


My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.

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the United States government... ;)
How dare you defile the name of a body as good and virtuous as the United States Government? The USG is a saint among current governments, an angel so pure the heavens couldn't hold it!

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Redundancy alert.

Affirmative.


My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.

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I always though the fantasy books of David Eddings were really based on the different religions in the real world.


ZylonBane's confession about himself:

"What can I say, I'm a jerk. A three times all American Jerk, from Jerksville, Kentucky. Yee Haw"

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How dare you defile the name of a body as good and virtuous as the United States Government? The USG is a saint among current governments, an angel so pure the heavens couldn't hold it!
Ha ha ha ha! Your Government, an angel? You're lucky the global mercenary corps aren't bashing down its door for stealing their clientele. Why just the other night, I saw it out back, blowing up the middle east!

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Ha ha ha ha! Your Government, an angel? You're lucky the global mercenary corps aren't bashing down its door for stealing their clientele. Why just the other night, I saw it out back, blowing up the middle east!
Such slander will not be tolerated by operation Desert Watch! You'd best run and rescue your helpless limp liberals, before they flounder in their own bureaucracy, or wake up naked after a US supported coup! Scurry off, or your oil reserves will acquire some very necessary relocation!

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Such slander will not be tolerated by operation Desert Watch! You'd best run and rescue your helpless limp liberals, before they flounder in their own bureaucracy, or wake up naked after a US supported coup! Scurry off, or your oil reserves will acquire some very necessary relocation!
Is that a threat, you frivolous bourgeois?! You gonna bonk us with your bottle rockets? On this side of the ocean we shoot like soldiers, so don't make promises your missles can't keep!

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Quick Dram, we better support Macsen! (Or else... :o )

We'll send like, a whole boat or something. Maybe an upgraded fishing boat. With like, a gun on it. And we should have FOUR men rowing this time...

 

Also those 1000 choppers we recently bought - the skysomething choppers.

 

We also have taken up a new religion common to all here - Macsenist Koalaism

 

:P:wacko:

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Is that a threat, you frivolous bourgeois?! You gonna bonk us with your bottle rockets? On this side of the ocean we shoot like soldiers, so don't make promises your missles can't keep!

You've gone...you've gone too far this time you camel riding towel wearing mullah-commies! A France-led UN occupying force in Lebanon ought to shut you up!

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You've gone...you've gone too far this time you camel riding towel wearing marxist-commies! A France-led UN occupying force in Lebanon ought to shut you up!
Have at thee! :angry:

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When we have gotten to the point that a we see every organization that begged us to be good moral and loving friendly human beings as OPRESSING we are ready for the real thing.... OPRESSIVE isn’t the second name of religion. Oppressing isn’t begging you to come to church. Oppressive isn’t hoping with all there might that you might find the a certain valuable enlightenment. The error of mankind is to say religion is oppressing me. Religion is holding me down.

 

Asking me to be a kind loving human being.

 

Maybe some religious groups have ruined it for the rest of us, I don’t know. Maybe a few bad apples really do spoil the bunch. But as for my family and me we serve the lord. He doesn’t oppress me. Whether he is real or imagined. I have gained more than I have lost simply by adopting a new social contract. What good would it do me to know unequivocally that I am a monkey: none. What harm could come in me worshiping a deity that asks me only to love my neighbor. It’s a little selfish to say “I feel OPRESSED when people ask me to be nice and good and kind. If anything antireligious groups have become the new oppressors.

 

What you should say is “I feel oppressed when people ask me to be good person because I generally am not.”

 

Its time we stop bashing the religious.

 

 

I know this mostly doesn’t pertain to Iran but I just read the part about poor orb-weaver who has been oppressed by religious people because they ruthlessly demanded he be nice and good and kind and love his neighbored…plus they also ask him for money to help feed the poor children. You know how orb hates those children…or was it he loves his money more…either way

 

 

Nothing against you ORB I love you but many of you guys got religion all lumped in together. We aren’t all the same thing you know. Some aren’t hypocrites. Some aren’t oppressors some really do love there neighbors and some really try to help. And some really hope to teach others to be kind too.

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Note: "Religiopolitical". Not "religious".

 

There's nothing wrong with religion itself, in its benign (i.e. non-fundamentalist) forms. (Fundamentalism is dangerous - but that's another debate.)

 

But the point at hand is that religion and politics should never, ever, mix. The separation of church and state is fundamental principle of democracy. It's a principle that Iran and the United States both violate; the former because it's a religious dictatorship, and the latter because of the "Religious Right" movement.

 

What good would it do me to know unequivocally that I am a monkey: none.

That's a straw man argument. If you honestly think that's what evolution theory is about then no wonder you don't believe it. At least try to argue from a position based on facts. :)


My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.

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@UnskilledLaboror: I think you're misunderstanding what people are calling "oppressive religiopolitical organisations". They're not refering voluntary religions, but rather theocracies.

 

Also, you seem to have religion and "being kind to one another" confused. If being nice to people was all religious organizations ever expected of people, few would feel oppressed by them. Many religions throughout the world have a long history of trying to silence opposing views (consider Galileo), even torture and murder those who hold them. (for example, the inquisition) Even now, though religions have grown far more pleasant, they still seek to impose restrictions on people, having nothing to do with promoting "being kind to one another". For example the recent bans on same-sex marriages. What does that have to do with "being kind to one another"? Not too long ago it was even illegal in many parts of the US to work on Sunday. What does that have to do with "being kind to one another"? It's imposition of your religion upon others. How would you feel if many people in the US were Jewish and there were laws prohibiting pork? It's this sort of stuff that many people take offense to, not being asked to be kind and charitable.

 

It always baffles me when I see Christains assume that Athiests must be mean people who like to kick puppies and such, just because they don't worry about Heaven and Hell or read the Bible. Athiests don't need a fear of God to be nice to others - they do it out of the goodness of their hearts. And only a sociopath cannot tell the difference beween right and wrong without the aid of a book.

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Being white and being nice hmm

 

One a choice each individual makes another the color of ones skin defined by DNA..

 

Interesting comparison.

 

I get it, so because there are some groups like KKK that means we should throw away all the great churches that teach tolerance and love.

 

I can’t see how you can intelligently make that connection.

 

 

The kkk use hate and fear and march with weapons.

 

Churches use preachers who spend there days hoping upon hope that the message of love is spread just a little each day. I see how you got confused. One is a hate group the other is a love group. I see how confusing that can be. people who care that you find enlightenment that is beneficial to you must be a stressful situation. It must be hard to decide on your own what groups are good and what groups are bad. So just throw all groups out.

 

Really I think comparing my little country church to the KKK is absurd.

 

All groups preach something. Even that science club and that math club you once frequented.

 

ORBY HOW OLD ARE YOU JUST WONDERING…

 

Hey I still love you ORBY. Your great.

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I'm sure your little country church is lovely, but it's not what is generally meant by a "religio-political organisation".

 

I am referring to the large, rich, powerful organised religions which have throughout history carried out war, oppression, torture, murder and mutilation in order to impose their views on others and eliminate any opposition (especially that of scientists, who have a nasty habit of exposing superstition for what it is).

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hey dude its not STRAW MAN argument its an example of some fact or other that would for some dissolve the reasoning behind there religious belief. this example was given to simply say that religious belief can often have more benefit than harm. And that knowing and understanding all the universe may not be as helpful as having a calm cool religious belief. Do, not for the love of god, place all religions into a box and say “hey look at these dumb people who don’t believe in this theory or that theory.”

 

If religious belief is a part of the process of evolution or if it is the real truth and people are really just monkeys or apes or whatever, what good does it do them to know unequivocally they are apes: none. it doesn’t. . There are many such examples where we have denounced religious ideas in favor of unhelpful scientific beliefs. Social structure is necessary.

What happened here was I misread orbs earlier statement that sounded to me as if he where denouncing religion as an oppressive institute. But then he made that comment about the KKK. So I am sorry for misreading and getting so excited.

I owe ORB apologies for doing so great an injustice to him and not reading his statement clearly now I see it was me miss quoting him and for that I am sorry.

 

PS labeling every argument not based on some fact or other but rather reason and logic a STRAW MAN argument is a really cool way of attempting to defeat their argument. All you have to do is say “ that argument is STRAW MAN argument and then you don’t have to use your brain and reason you only have to say there’s no facts in it., some argument s have no facts there are only reason and logic. You can go back to that seminar on Critical Thinking and really listen to the definition of straw man argument.

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straw man

 

 

A made-up version of an opponent’s argument that can easily be defeated. To accuse people of attacking a straw man is to suggest that they are avoiding worthier opponents and more valid criticisms of their own position: “His speech had emotional appeal, but it wasn’t really convincing because he attacked a straw man rather than addressing the real issues.”

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this example was given to simply say that religious belief can often have more benefit than harm.
And we've been saying that throughout history the opposite has usually been the case.

 

And that knowing and understanding all the universe may not be as helpful as having a calm cool religious belief.
So you're saying that being able to cure or treat painful debilitating diseases isn't as helpful as being able to pretend that humans and monkeys are completely unrelated? If people went by biblical explanations of diseases, that they were caused by demons or whatnot, instead of trying to better understand the universe, we wouldn't have the extensive medical knowledge we have today. Also, knowledge of evolution helps explain things like drug-resistant diseases, and allows us to come up with better methods of fighting them. (such as not being wasteful in our usage of antibiotics and only prescribing them where neccessary)

 

Just out of curiosity, do you believe in selective breeding? Where exactly do you draw the line between that and evolution?

 

If religious belief is a part of the process of evolution or if it is the real truth and people are really just monkeys or apes or whatever, what good does it do them to know unequivocally they are apes: none. it doesn’t. .
Knowing that humans and apes are related as a lot of useful applications, ranging from psycological to medical. The best example would be a potential cure to HIV. Humans and chimpanzees only differ in their genetic code by 2%. (genetic testing has shown that chimpanzees are actually closer related to humans than other monkeys) It's widely believed that HIV evolved from SIV or that they have a common ancestor. Interestingly enough, SIV doesn't harm chimpanzees, while HIV harms humans. If we could figure out where in that 2% prevents chimps from getting ill, or what parts of HIV are different from SIV, we might be able to find a way to treat AIDS. Surely that's useful?

 

There are many such examples where we have denounced religious ideas in favor of unhelpful scientific beliefs. Social structure is necessary.
Religion isn't necessary for social structure.

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....But as for my family and me we serve the lord. He doesn’t oppress me. Whether he is real or imagined.

Well, it should be pretty obvious he is imagined.

Have you actually read the Bible in its entireity? And you still think Christianity/Islam/Judaisim aren't primitive, barbaric superstitious control structures to herd the sheep of this world around in a fog of ignorance and obediance? I mean seriously, read the Pentateuch for example, and you'd be forgiven for thinking the author(s) had gotten God and Satan confused for each other... Does a god that commands his followers to rip out unborn children from the wombs of their mothers and smash them on rocks and leave the women to die sound like a kind, loving being to you? Worth worshipping? (read the bit about what God wanted done to the Midianites, and all the other acts of genocide he commanded the Israelites to commit - makes Hitler look like a baby rabbit).

 

What kind of God decides that because humans have started to behave in a way he doesn't likes (even though he knew full well they would not do what he wanted, being all knowing), that he will flood every living thing out of existence (barrring a few poor beasts cooped up in some rickety boat), and then decides afterwards that he won't do it again, even though it changed nothing about human nature?

That is just insane, not to mention unspeakably cruel, to drown billions of innocent creatures who just happen to have the misfortune to share a planet with some hominids that pissed of their deity, and could have been dealt with much more humanely and without killing everything else off. Religion is just crazy, insanity dressed up as a virtue.

 

You can take a few quotes of things Jesus is supposed to have said about love and kindess, but the vast bulk of the Bible is about smiting people, torture, suffering and endless human carnage. I mean really, read the damn thing properly in full, and tell me with a straight face that you really believe the god YHWH is a good being worth a moment of your time, let alone lifelong servitude.

 

I have gained more than I have lost simply by adopting a new social contract. What good would it do me to know unequivocally that I am a monkey: none.

 

Your gross misunderstanding of evolution aside, what good does it do you to "know" that you are the helpless minion of some powerful being that changes its mind every few hundred years and orders you around like a sheep led to a slaughteryard?

 

What harm could come in me worshiping a deity that asks me only to love my neighbor.

 

Quite a lot. The ability to think for your self is quite impaired when you blindly believe things like invisible men in the sky. If you read the Bible, your God is more likely to ask you to castrate and murder your neighbor than to love him or her, but for some reason, Christians like to ignore the Old Testament, except when it comes to peddling their Creationism nonesense.

 

Its time we stop bashing the religious.

 

Wrong. It is high time all religion was purged from our societies. Religion has no place in a civilised society. Unquestioning belief in anything is highly dangerous, and must be avoided and shunned at all times. While I am not suggesting that we should be literaly "bashing the religious", we should start by not giving religious organisations special treatment, eg, ban all religion-based education an tax churches/mosques/temples etc the same as corporations for starters.

 

 

…plus they also ask him for money to help feed the poor children. You know how orb hates those children…or was it he loves his money more…either way

Well, judging by the Catholic church for example, there is enough wealth locked away in the Vatican City to seriously help a lot of the world. Does the pope really nead all of those elaborate tapestreis and gold plated crucifixes etc? And they are more likely to abuse children than help them.

 

We aren’t all the same thing you know.

 

Yes, you are. You are all prepared to believe in something without leaving room for doubt, and that is dangerous and ultimately leads to the sorts of attrocities that have been commited in the name of religion.

 

Even religions that are often perceived as "benign", like Tibetan Bhudism, are really not so nice when you dig under the surface. Tibetan Bhuddists established a Theocracy in Tibet by violently murdering all of the native Shamans, and overthrowing all resistance by force. They would often skin people alive to make examples of them, and were every bit as noxious as the Catholics during the inquisition.

 

As Gildoran pointed out, only a sociopath needs to learn how to treat others from a book, and there are plenty of ways you can structure a harmonious society without resorting to superstitious mumbo-jumbo.

Edited by obscurus

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