Which characters using current rig?

[Springheel]

I need to know which of our existing characters are using the current, up-to-date citywatch skeleton. I'm going to set up that "size set" idea and test it out, but I'd like to try it with several different AI. As far as I know, the following use the new skeleton:

 

citywatch

thief

builder guard

builder priest

beggar

 

 

Not sure about the others. Come to think of it, does the new rig have a different number of joints than the old one? If not, would it even matter if they used the exact same skeleton?

[squill]

I need to know which of our existing characters are using the current, up-to-date citywatch skeleton. I'm going to set up that "size set" idea and test it out, but I'd like to try it with several different AI. As far as I know, the following use the new skeleton:

 

citywatch

thief

builder guard

builder priest

beggar

Not sure about the others. Come to think of it, does the new rig have a different number of joints than the old one? If not, would it even matter if they used the exact same skeleton?

 

I'm not sure what you mean with the "new skeleton". The models you listed above except the builder guard are still using the same skeleton based on tdm_rig_base.mb that was created by ascottk.

 

Isn't the beggar a character you working on yourself? I've tried to replace the builder guard skeleton with the citywatch but i'm not able to export it properly with textures and the separated head and such. Maybe you could take a look at that model since you seem to be more successful with exporting meshes.

[Springheel]

I'm not sure what you mean with the "new skeleton".

 

I'm not 100% sure either. I get confused with the term "rig". From now on I'm going to say "animation rig" when talking about the version you use to create animations on, and "rig" to refer to the basic mesh+skeleton used to export the md5mesh file.

 

My understanding was that Oddity created a revised version of Ascottk's citywatch rig (in other words, he uploaded a new bone+mesh rig). He didn't change the joints but made some adjustments. Are we using that version with any of the characters? And is the intention to make that the new default skeleton?

 

Let me lay out exactly how I'm thinking about this, so that maybe you can point out where I'm wrong and/or confused:

 

My assumption is that currently, the AI Ascottk rigged all use slightly different skeletons with slightly different joint set-ups. That's why the -keep option has to be used when animations are exported, because some AI have toe_end joints and others don't (frex).

 

My thought was that we would create ONE default skeleton that would be used for *every* human (male) character. All current AI meshes would be 'rigged' to this skeleton to make new md5meshes. I thought this effort had already begun, and that we were using the citywatch skeleton as this default skeleton. So when I hear Ascottk say, "The Thief is now using the citywatch skeleton", I assumed that the thief mesh had been resized to match the citywatch skeleton and was weighted to it.

 

IF that were the case, the citywatch and the thief would both have the same number of bones/joints, with the same names. Therefore, they should be able to use the same md5anim files, which lead me to the "AI Sizes" idea.

 

HOWEVER, this does not appear to be the case, as per the thread about Thief animations. The Thief and Citywatch do NOT currently have the same number of joints, even though they are supposedly sharing the same skeleton.

 

I don't understand why that is.

 

(I'm sure we'll get this figured out...hope it doesn't come across as frustrated because I'm actually a bit bemused right now.)

 

I've tried to replace the builder guard skeleton with the citywatch but i'm not able to export it properly with textures and the separated head and such. Maybe you could take a look at that model since you seem to be more successful with exporting meshes.

 

I've done it with the LightWave exporter, but I know very little about using Maya...that's the area I'm currently working on learning.

[squill]

I'm not 100% sure either. I get confused with the term "rig". From now on I'm going to say "animation rig" when talking about the version you use to create animations on, and "rig" to refer to the basic mesh+skeleton used to export the md5mesh file.

 

sure i'm fine with that and glad you cleared that up

 

My understanding was that Oddity created a revised version of Ascottk's citywatch rig (in other words, he uploaded a new bone+mesh rig). He didn't change the joints but made some adjustments. Are we using that version with any of the characters? And is the intention to make that the new default skeleton?

 

to be honest i don't know if Oddity finished his rig. I've seen a version on what he was working on but since then i don't know if he finished it or uploaded a final version.

 

I assumed the new rig would be used for a later release while we continue to work with the current skeleton and fix the remaining AI models so we can share the animations. Like i said before the only model which seems to have a different skeleton is the builder guard and i think we can replace that one with the same skeleton of the citywatch. This was also i believe one of the things that started the thing about the scales of the AI models and replacing the old skeleton.

 

I was also to believe the skeleton would be the same on all AI ascottk rigged. But since i started working on sharing the animations i'm getting the impression it's more complicated then i expected with the settings in the def files, #joints and the scales of some models. I still need to learn a lot about this. But i think we can sort this out.

[Springheel]

to be honest i don't know if Oddity finished his rig. I've seen a version on what he was working on but since then i don't know if he finished it or uploaded a final version.

 

I'm not talking about the new rig he made with different joints. (My personal feelings are that it would be far more effort than it's worth to use it.)

 

I'm talking about the 'cleaned up' version of the original citywatch skeleton:

 

I also adjusted the rig which was in a shoddy state, it wasn't even symmetrical and the knees and elbows were misplaced, and it seems that no attempt at all was made to line the bones with with the claw hand.... It's probably not worth while completely redoing the rig. I think this one can work pretty well with these adjustments.

 

Here's the maya file with the tweaked model and rig and the animation and the fbx file.

 

http://www.pixelwerks.be/files/guardrevision.rar

 

So, when you are trying to switch the builder guard to the citywatch skeleton, are you using Oddity's "adjusted citywatch rig", or still the old Ascottk version?

 

I was also to believe the skeleton would be the same on all AI ascottk rigged. But since i started working on sharing the animations i'm getting the impression it's more complicated then i expected with the settings in the def files, #joints and the scales of some models. I still need to learn a lot about this. But i think we can sort this out.

 

Ok, so I can take some comfort in that we're both confused.

 

Well, I think what I'm going to do next is just bite the bullet and start rigging one of the new AI models that I made a while back. Hopefully going through the whole process start to finish will help me figure some of this out. In the meantime, keep me posted if anything starts to make sense.

[squill]

I'm not talking about the new rig he made with different joints. (My personal feelings are that it would be far more effort than it's worth to use it.)

 

I'm talking about the 'cleaned up' version of the original citywatch skeleton:

 

that's what i meant. I haven't seen a cleaned up version from him other then a temp rig with different joint names.

 

So, when you are trying to switch the builder guard to the citywatch skeleton, are you using Oddity's "adjusted citywatch rig", or still the old Ascottk version?

 

Ascottk. Because that way i'm sure the shared animations will show up properly without having to edit a lot of the existing animations like i did with the priest and thief.

 

I'd like to help with the rigging but it's a bit unclear for me how models are handled with separated heads, meshes and such when you export. Having a clean skeleton will definitely improve the workflow for animation and exporting. But until we find out how it exactly works i think the current rig should be fine to add new characters.

 

Ideal would be to have a base rig (mesh & skeleton) which is also used for creating animations. That way if the model gets an update an animator can instantly see the changes on the model itself instead of having separated model rigs and animation rigs. Of course new characters and variations on the same character can be done separated because the skeletons will be the same.

[Springheel]

that's what i meant. I haven't seen a cleaned up version from him other then a temp rig with different joint names.

 

Oh really? I thought that .rar file he linked to was the cleaned up version, not the totally new one. Well that's not very helpful.

 

Ideal would be to have a base rig (mesh & skeleton) which is also used for creating animations.

 

I thought we DID have that. Are you saying the new citywatch animation rig does not use the same skeleton as the citywatch md5mesh? The actual mesh itself is fairly irrelevant as long as the skeleton is the same.

 

...or maybe not. Again, I'm used to Lightwave, where you can weightpaint a model, and then load ANY skeleton--as long as the joint names are the same, the model is automatically 'rigged' to that skeleton. If Maya doesn't work that way, this might be a lot more problematic.

 

I'd like to help with the rigging but it's a bit unclear for me how models are handled with separated heads, meshes and such when you export.

 

Well, it's quite easy in LW. But I've only done it once in Maya, and that was for a single mesh.

[squill]

Oh really? I thought that .rar file he linked to was the cleaned up version, not the totally new one. Well that's not very helpful.

 

To be sure i looked at the thread about the rigs again and he did post a revision of the skeleton but also a temp rig of some new setup. I remember i got some animations transfered to the revised rig but the adjustments required a lot of work. I can't download the revision anymore because the link is asking for a username and password.

 

I thought we DID have that. Are you saying the new citywatch animation rig does not use the same skeleton as the citywatch md5mesh? The actual mesh itself is fairly irrelevant as long as the skeleton is the same.

 

We do i'm not talking about the skeleton but the mesh. I'm just bringing this up because you mentioned some things before like bodyparts going thru the mesh which is difficult to check if the mesh i'm animating with is not the same. It's not really a big issue because i can still see the end result ingame.

[Springheel]

How much tweaking do you need to do from mesh to mesh to make animations work? I'm beginning to think this idea of having models use the same md5anims just isn't going to work well in practice. If our animations have to be tweaked individually to look right from one model to the next, then having individual md5anim files is probably required.

[squill]

How much tweaking do you need to do from mesh to mesh to make animations work? I'm beginning to think this idea of having models use the same md5anims just isn't going to work well in practice. If our animations have to be tweaked individually to look right from one model to the next, then having individual md5anim files is probably required.

 

When sharing some of the citywatch animations i probably did the tweaks in a few hours. Although the amount of AI's now is pretty small. It's usually tweaking the positions of the hands and feet. If it's going to be a lot more i think having body parts in more or less the same proportions would be an advantage.

 

Not all of the animations will probably fit the AI's. There will always be some tweaking to be done so i don't think we'll be working without having individual md5anim files.

[Springheel]

Ok, let's scrap that little idea then.

 

I'm working on getting the new nobleman mesh up to snuff and then I'll have a go at rigging it.

 

Do you know if Oddity ever uploaded the new 5-fingered hands he made? I can get the current versions down to about 600 polys without losing much, but if he's got better ones I'd be happy to use those.

[Domarius]

In the game I'm working on in the office right now, I can safely say it's extremely beneficial to have just ONE rig for all human characters, and any exceptions are worked around so that you can still use the same rig.

 

I can't see a reason for a seperate rig for any of our human characters. If the builders (for example) put their weapon away differently than the city watch (put hammer on back instead of putting sword in shieth) then the rig should be updated to have an extra attatchment point on the back to acommodate the builder characters, not make a new rig for the builder characters.

[squill]

In the game I'm working on in the office right now, I can safely say it's extremely beneficial to have just ONE rig for all human characters, and any exceptions are worked around so that you can still use the same rig.

 

That's what we're focusing on doing. We do the same at work.

[Domarius]

Okay, as you were