Airship Ballet

There's being pessimistic about a game and then there's witch hunting. Knock it off.

"Tombs with piped in music. How classy." Garrett's the right kind of cynical, I think. Russell has ridiculous range and it makes me so disappointed that they gave him so many roles in Skyrim that were all the same kind of person.

My fault for not making it clear. The fact that they're hidden is great, it's just the fact that there are so many that stop you from going back afaik. I'd rather have more intricate map geometry as the trade-off for a few drawn-out animations though, especially given the lack of impact on performance. Uh-huh, but it seems the moment I voice a less-than-condemning opinion of the game it's a hate crime against either poor people who can't afford to upgrade or fans of the first few. It's quite difficult to rationally explain why it's such an inherently radical and sensationalist conclusion to jump to other than saying it's nonsensical and unfounded, which then prompts another similar accusation. It's almost surreal to come back and get a response like that after having said "that man seems like a nice guy." Sometimes people need to be told off, but I agree it shouldn't take up 3 pages of a thread. Hehe, well in almost every game I've played that works off D&D rules, the Thief/Rogue is always a walking cliché. You get all sorts of mages, warriors, bards, rangers and healers but the Thief is almost always a gravelly-voiced, apathetic, loveable rogue. It tended to fit in with those games as they still worked off the culture that brought you the awesomely ridiculous Fantasy novels that really were fantastical and had awesome covers busier than a Rubens painting. That was where the archetypal rogue was born and it's since become a cliché people try to avoid. Garrett, I think, was the last example of an apathetic and cynical yet loveable rogue that worked, largely due to the game's setting and its fantastical quirks you saw with craymen and the like. He wasn't very cheesy at all, despite having some lines that are cheesy, moreso when re-used in fan missions. I think they were just used in the main games at exactly the right points with the exact mood it needed to stop it sounding silly. There's a dissonance between that kind of person and the more secular-feeling city that this rendition seems to have, because I've only ever really associated the character with thoroughly fantastical settings. That aside, Stephen Russell was simply far better at making it sound like an inner monologue. The writing also wasn't as fourth-wall breaking in terms of objectives since that had all been dealt with in the briefing. It's a mixture of a bunch of things really, but it's the lack of 90s context that makes the 90s Thief Archetype fall short here.

A Neutral Way of Looking at Thief 4 The Good It looks great, really visually appealing even through my monochromacy, Movement seems fairly smooth. I hope there's an option to either not use that glide or make it really penalizing, Dynamic lighting looks great and barely affects performance, even when it's interacting with a lot of geometry, Dynamic score provides plenty of fitting audio cues. In addition to that, it's pretty good music, especially the more electronic, Downwind Thieves Guild track towards the end of level 1, Decently minimal and uniform HUD, can probably turn it off anyway, Depth of field looks good. People have said it's unrealistic but it's a game mechanic to direct attention, not a true-to-life simulation of human eye behavior, Climbing points are, while restricting, still easy to spot and plan out a route with. The animation doesn't take forever and you're able to jump back down if you feel inclined to, Interior design looks lovely and believable, hopefully really grotty in less wealthy residences, Despite being unnecessary, the change to vignetting and the player's hands are fairly helpful, especially if somebody's playing with the HUD off, Loot is laid out fairly logically within the context of the setting. This makes the level design far more important as it's no longer corridors and bedrooms with miscellaneous loot laid around the place, Loot puzzles are present and will probably become more and more complex. Hidden loot is still a target, I just hope they're not all collectibles, I'm a sucker for being given the option to get more or less money depending on risk assessment. Money seems to have a more important role to play now rather than being squandered on things you don't need because it doesn't carry over two levels, meaning I'll be more inclined to find it all, Multiple routes, seemingly without the very limiting skill requirements you saw in DX:HR. If you truly can go any route you like and it's only a matter of finding the best one, it's a big +1, The player doesn't seem to have an abundance of resources, meaning there will probably be the same equipment-related decisions to make as prior iterations, as well as hunting for them in the mission itself. The Bad Hidden loading screens between relatively small areas as a downside to its detailed geometry. The game does make it clear where these are before you use them, though, so you can avoid leaving an area without meaning to. Location text in the corner of the screen is unnecessary and way too frequent. Too many player-magnet animations, most of which look terrible and unrealistic (landing from a height looks far too weak) A lot of the animations look dumb and cartoonish (climbing up a rope, putting away lockpicks) Hands floating all over the place taking up way too much of the screen at times, might look better with higher FOV. Voice acting is god-awful and the propagation makes it sound like they're stood right next to you. Garrett's cheesy D&D Thief attitude doesn't work post-90s. Lone AI talks way too much, way too often. You can drag bodies forwards...? Generic Dishonored-style readables. Lazy and less than immersive. Far too easy to sneak around, above or behind people, who in turn have unrealistic reactions to splashes in puddles and torches going out in the rain. Sticky takedown animations. Not such a bad thing if there's a way around it or it's more difficult to get close later on. There is a huge delay between attacking them and making to hide them so it won't be an option in most cases. In summary I think it's pretty, immersive and seems fairly fun to play. That said, it appears to be way too easy. The writing and voice acting is awful, as are some of the animations. This is, however, only the first level. I'm hoping the difficulty ramps up like crazy either by design or player choice. The voice acting probably won't improve and the same animations will crop up all over the place with re-textured ropes and player-magnet points. All I hope is that it becomes more expansive and more difficult in later levels. That's usually the case with these kinds of games, and I'm 99% certain that it won't stay this simple. Hidden loot will become harder to find and there will be fewer easily accessible paths that allow you to cross right over people without incident. I expect my immersion to be broken an awful lot, but then again expect that with all AAA games of late; it's fairly difficult to really get immersed in something when they put so much polish and market influence into it. My most hated characteristic of these kinds of games is to try and sell you parts of the game with flavor text in-game. "Have you checked out this game mode?Maybe try playing like this!" I'm sure there'll be tons of arbitrary DLC that references other games or adds a couple of gimmicky items alongside a pricy mission or two. Then again, expecting anything else is like expecting to go through the pop charts and not be blasted with trashy gangsta rappers and hashtags. Discuss. Properly. Without saying "betrayed", "trust", "original trilogy" or making lengthy reference to games past. Leave your "passion" at the door and just discuss the damn coverage. Take the game and talk about what you've seen in the gameplay thus far. Don't talk about forums, communities or things EM have supposedly said, just what you've seen and can safely infer.

You mean there's a way to look at it with an open mind rather than proclaiming it's trash? My God, where can we discuss this new way of looking at Thief 4 and not the opinion that Thief 4 is trash?

*twitch*

I'm not talking about EM over the years, I'm talking about that one guy in that one interview who seems like a nice guy who enjoys what he does. I have no idea what that has to do with the original trilogy transcending its roots and becoming a passionate subject for all involved, a sort of niche taboo that renders its followers outcasts of society. Then again I can't seem to say much in these threads until I have a tinfoil hat plonked on my head and am told that EM wants my kidneys.

There you go again with the sensationalism. You really need to stop making people out to be sinister caricatures based on pretty harmless opinions. The entire Thief community is consisted of a bunch of nerds who grew up playing the same kinds of nerdy games with the same nerdy tastes. Nobody's shunning anybody as far as I can see, doesn't have to be so negative. Not sure what you mean about it transcending game status and becoming something else though. I mean sure, people put a lot of time into mapping and get pretty cosy in the community but it's hardly a lifestyle choice or an ideology.

I wouldn't say so. He implies they've used the series as a springboard and made it their own for better or for worse. Just going off the flak these guys have gotten, it's a surprise to see somebody from a big studio being pretty down-to-Earth. He didn't Molyneux all over the place with wild claims and nor did he go full Levine with his attitude, just seems to be a normal guy who knows what he and his studio is about. Granted this is IGN but at worst they'll cherry-pick when it comes to interview transcriptions. I'm sure plenty of people are reading this and thinking "that's how they getcha " but really it's just a game.

Good old Good Old Games

Geez, I'd forgotten about the existence of Project I.G.I. I wouldn't really call it tactical though. My install broke the first time I ever played it so I had no HUD. I assumed the lack of a crosshair was part of the game and played it through without it. It's difficult as all hell but not very tactical. PAYDAY 2's an amazing game that you can play either noisily or stealthily; tenuous but everything else I can think of has been mentioned. You have to spec skill points into trees that let you stealth which means you can't survive a firefight properly until you have enough levels to compensate but still, pretty fun to stealth. http://youtu.be/8yzLwDI7J0s Oh, and Commandos. Good luck getting that to run on a contemporary rig though.

That works fine. My reason to combine the downloads would be to tidy up the main hot-bar as opposed to having all downloads display on one page.

Hey, woah, no. I'm all for FMs getting released and know first-hand how time-consuming mapping for anything is, but don't defend the guy for being a complete ass. He started up this PM (screenshots start from the first message) after I took a couple of minutes to check out the credits of productions he claimed to be a part of. Beyond a certain point I just don't care who he says he is but initially his attitude when making those claims was awful and the bluff was easy to call. Beyond that, no condemnation or argument, so I was pretty disappointed when he started flaming me by PM. I look past it and the first thing he does is go full sexist again. When I insist on being decent he behaves himself to a degree before abandoning the project at the first sign of issue and blaming other people for it. Through beta testing he barely changed a thing after people went to the effort of listing all its problems. Now it's playable and decent but he's ignored advice and wasted people's time. Half the people who tested it for him have given up and wished him the best. He's had tons of support and run his mouth all over the place in the process so please don't just make out people who took issue with his radical claims to fame as assholes who want his map to crash and burn. Everybody wants it finished despite his rotten attitude but it's pretty damn difficult with the level of cooperation he's shown. Follow your own advice and leave the thread be, I guess until he either comes back to fix it or it gets buried.

Think he meant TDP. I don't actually like The Lost City much since there's not much meat to it. Aside from plopping fire elementals with water arrows and easily avoiding a couple of mages, it's a fairly dull mission. Then again I feel that way with most supernatural missions aside from the Cathedral and the Cradle. I can admire the level design and the readables but aside from narrative they have little appeal.

I think they still need to be combined somehow. If there's a downloads section, which is the first place people wanting the mod or missions will go, they'll assume anything else like "missions" is just details and screenshots rather than d/l links. You either need a downloads section and no redundant pages or no downloads and all the pages with their own links instead. The former is tidier, imo. Also "centred and responsive" just sounds more like "make the website good and stuff". I think the poll could have been written a bit better with options to say no to some things. Then again, that's what posts are for.

Well from what I can see there isn't any pervasive score over the top of sneaking, thank God. That said I wouldn't call anything from Thief a 'score' as such, more just a darker, more industrial ambience. There's nothing in the game itself that I'd put on a soundtrack CD, compared to System Shock 2 where Brosius went full-on with the electronic. Still, the sound file for the Horn of Quintus could very easily send me to sleep, even now.

I think it's more for the general ambience rather than particular audio cues. That's why I'd want to hear it, anyway.

I think primarily by taking Thief in the direction they have, they've distanced themselves from the original IP. I can't speak for them with regards to whether or not they intended it to follow on from the first few but given the ommissions and changes they made, they seem to consider it more of a reboot. I feel like they'd be crapping on the originals as much as people imply if they, say, took Stephen Russell and gave him lines that mocked his Looking Glass rendition. A good example was the edgy protagonist of the newest Devil May Cry, wherein they had a white mop brush fall on his head that looked a lot like the original character's hair. Then he said "not in a million years" or something like that and threw it off in disgust. That is crapping on its roots, but they seem to be doing their own thing with the same name, similar to how they translated Deus Ex into Human Revolution. If they ever claimed that it's true to the originals then they're completely wrong and should feel pretty bad, but that won't stop me judging the game on its own merits once it's released. I agree with you 100%: negativity based on evidence is fine. It's the snobbery, self-entitled attitude and close-mindedness of the select few that gets me. The way I see it is that if you've made your mind up you've nothing left to say. I think that beyond a certain point anything you say is redundant and tends towards self-indulgence. These are the kinds of people that rarely make allowances for good qualities in something they've set their sights on and cherry-pick both responses and coverage that suits their frame of mind. I've no problem with being negative, and only a mild issue with people who jump the gun and condemn something so early provided they back it up. It's honestly just the attitude of some; I'm by no means generalizing because the same archetypal people crop up every time a sequel is announced. Those people need to get over themselves.

I just went to record a playthrough video for the page and I can't finish it. I found all the loot available, which is 900, out of a possible 2800. Some of the loot is working but the rest seems to have become matte cubes. There's a pile of them in the room before the tunnel that are supposed to be stones according to a nearby readable.

Yah, didn't literally mean the visuals of it. I thought that could be used as a general term in English, guess not.

Eidos and SE haven't. If they have, shame on them, no denying that. I'm neither generalizing nor misrepresenting the opinions of "people who are angry about T4" but rather the people who've already made up their minds about it. There's a lot of coverage out by now that details a lot of the game, and it's perfectly okay to form an opinion based on that. What is irritating is the petty way in which some people with negative views have simply condemned it. Even then, even with such a binary view of things they've seen, it's fine to opt out of it. The issue I have is with people who are saying over and over again that it's crap and they'll never play it and this is why and this is why and then agreeing with one another perpetually, probably until release. Posting the next bit of coverage and scoffing about it to one another, seeing statements that are either ambiguous or negligible and just viewing it negatively, having already made their minds up. Those select few are circle-jerking and casting a really bad light on people who just don't like the idea of the game as presented thus far, like you and Skaruts. They're acting like the kind of people who call themselves "true" fans and the like. If you could pass your mature don't-know-for-sure-until-it's-here mentality over to those types, we'd be golden. With regards to it not being representative of particular people and their posts, it is, and I can see them, I just don't want to go pointing fingers since the last thing I want is discussion turning to argument.

Oh yeah, it ended up absolutely terrible. Yeah, I know, my main issue is the amount of hate directed at it before it's even been released and the argument that it won't live up to its predecessors, despite making very few attempts to make similarities or laying claim to the Looking Glass legacy.

Halle-fucking-lujah

Well then if it's not NuGarrett, what is it? It's certainly not Garrett Garrett because he has a completely different voice, methodology and frame of mind given the coverage thus far.

Only when it suits your argument, otherwise he's NuGarrett. And yeah, that was my point about Final Fantasy. They're all different games that are judged independently but are under the umbrella of 'Final Fantasy' because they're all made by Square and are RPGs. Picking up on the fact that there's a guy called Garrett and saying that means it must adhere to the values and mechanics of the first three is nonsense. That's like taking Final Fantasy and saying that since there's a Cid, a Biggs and a Wedge in almost all of them, they must all be the same but revamped since they're in a series and share similarities. It's just nostalgics refusing to believe that the original Thief games are long dead and that the values of the time that made it what they are are gone. The entire games industry has been revolutionised time and time again since then. You'll never, ever get such a small dev team working on a non-indie game now and certainly not on one being published straight into the AAA scene. People need to move on, enjoy LGS' Thief (because it isn't going anywhere) and give this thing a fair chance as its own game. If people can't, that's their issue, but it's pretty damn close-minded.