Daft Mugi

I'll add one thing, which I didn't state earlier because I assumed it was obvious. But I'd like to make it clear. What is the purpose of dragging a body and body manipulation in this stealth game? In my opinion, it is a "tool" or "game mechanic" that gives the player the ability to do two things: The last 10%. After shouldering a body and dropping it in a desired location, the player can drag and hide it more precisely in the shadows. Is just a foot or hand sticking out into the light? No problem. Grab and drag it into the shadows. No need to shoulder and drop the entire body again. That's a good thing. Dragging gives fine-tuned control for that scenario. Nearby shadows. After KO-ing a guard near a dark area, the player can quickly drag the guard into the dark area. The distance here would be one or two body lengths away. Given that the distance is short, dragging is quicker than shouldering and dropping. That's a good thing. Dragging gives a quick way to hide a body in that scenario. In my opinion, the 2.12 controls enhance the experience for those two scenarios, because the controls give a quick way to grab a body, drag it into position, and release it quickly and precisely. However, most of the time that fine-tuned control is not necessary for this stealth game. Shouldering and dropping a body can work well enough, hence why it became the primary action. That said, being able to precisely drag a body is a great enhancement to just shouldering, and it's something players can learn and appreciate given time.

Yep. The implementation is roughly as follows: tdm_show_viewpos 2; wait; screenshot; tdm_show_viewpos 0 (It's a bit more sophisticated than this, because it sets the ambient gamma and restores the user values.) That's why you see the viewpos flash on screen, and the "screenshot" is done between viewpos enabled and disabled. So, it showing the viewpos when bound to F11 and not when bound to KP_SLASH is very odd.

After having trouble dragging the body where he wanted, the player said, "No. Noooo." (29:09) Player said, "I'm sorry. I'm not trying to look up there. It's just very awkward to drag bodies." (30:08) What I see is a player having trouble being stealthy while playing a stealth game, so this video just adds evidence in support of making shouldering the primary action over dragging. I never saw that he figured out how to shoulder a body. I think we are wanting to optimize for two different scenarios: One is to optimize for a stealth experience, and the other is to optimize for a "comical" experience. If I'm understanding you correctly, you have a strong fascination with body manipulation. Earlier in this thread, you stated: What you find as "comical", I see as the player suffering with the gameplay and struggling with the controls. Players have written their frustration with the pre-2.12 controls and stopped playing TDM all together. I've already seen players write about their interest in trying 2.12 based on the recent changes, which is huge. They're willing to give it another go, and that's great for our community. I am interested in watching playthrough videos and reading player experiences with the 2.12 version once released. Then, we'll be able to get more feedback about the 2.12 controls. Body manipulation is still available, and I find that it's even easier to do with the 2.12 controls. @STiFU commented something similar: @snatcher, given that body manipulation is so important to you, then I suggest creating a group and creating content about body manipulation. This could be similar to the groups that ghost or ironman the game. For example, Rule #1: Bodies must be dragged. Shouldering bodies is not allowed.

@datiswous I can't think of or find a reason why this would happen. It works when bound to other keys, right? What other keys does it not work with? What if you press KP_SLASH multiple times? Same result? Does "tdm_show_viewpos 2" display ok?

I see there is a missing "_" between "screenshot" and "viewpos". Does it work when the underscore is included, like so: bind "KP_SLASH" "screenshot_viewpos 1.3"

Ugh, yeah, the toggle state between walk/run doesn't get saved. It's using the old Doom 3 implementation. I'll take a look.

I personally use GitHub gists to share patches for review. That way I can update them more easily. I format the patch so that it is SVN compatible. I use git locally, so I run the command: git diff --no-prefix > r0000-my-patch-name.diff "r0000" prefix is the SVN revision it is based on. For example, https://gist.github.com/daftmugi/41d0324107e8734f364bb3e50ff00794 But perhaps @stgatilov has another suggestion?

Well, it looks quite funny. The view rolls more than 180 degrees, turning the player into some kind of unnatural monster of sorts. The cvar to set this is "pm_mantle_roll_mod", and its value has been capped at 1.0 in order to keep the player within the human range. No exorcist needed.

In what way has any of this been "aggressive"? I ask, because I've tried to be the exact opposite of aggressive as much as possible. If I can improve here, I'd like to know. Have others been aggressive towards you? What are you insinuating here? I ask, because it sounds like you are either displeased with me personally, with the dev team as a whole, or with mission authors. What do you think needs to be addressed exactly? Would you mind making this clear, so we can improve? If it makes you feel any better, all of the player control and movement issues that I'm aware of that can be addressed have already been addressed. So, I personally don't have anymore player control or movement changes planned at this time. Regarding this mantle speed change, I proposed it internally and created the original solution. But the final solution was a dev team collaboration, and therefore I'm not the sole contributor of this change. The core team, including myself, already addressed this change. Are those the details that you wanted to read?

My two cents here is to mimic video streaming services, such as Netflix. They've likely spent a lot of time and money researching subtitles. The Netflix default is a white font color with a black drop shadow. In the subtitle settings, users can change the font color and enable/disable a background color. We could do the same and provide settings in the menu. The improvements to both the subtitles and location ring are looking good! Netflix settings:

What are you talking about?

This is not true.

The 2.11 (and prior) feedback came from TTLG and Thief discord servers. During early testing, several of these players and Thief FM authors expressed renewed interest in trying TDM and some have become regulars of TDM because of recent changes. I consider that a win for the TDM community, because more players and mission authors are good for us. More mission authors means more missions for us to enjoy; more players means a bigger audience for those mission authors. (I'm vague here about who the players are for privacy reasons, but you can find them by searching TTLG, Thief discord servers, and TDM discord servers.) As for the mission authors, the dev team got feedback from them during development of the increased mantle speed in 2.12. The main feedback that was listened to was that mantling should be faster, especially the overhead mantle. As for who they are, perhaps they can chime in here to let you all know.

All right y'all. We need some good ole data instead of 28 pages of -- well, you know. The "mantle roll" is the amount the view rolls or tilts during a mantle. So, if you could be so kind as to: Launch TDM 2.12 Beta Go to Settings -> Gameplay Set "View: Mantle Roll" to: 1.0 and test in game (100% of original mantle roll) 0.5 and test in game (50% of original mantle roll) 0.1 and test in game (10% of original mantle roll) Finally, vote for your preferred setting. The increased mantle speed changed the feel a bit and perhaps the mantle roll would feel better tweaked some to match it. (Edit: To clarify, this is about a potentially different default mantle roll value. The "View: Mantle Roll" slider in the settings will remain, regardless.) This thread is for your click-ity click vote on the poll at the top of this page. All constructive comments about the increased mantle speed in 2.12 are welcome on its own, wonderful thread:

@Frost_Salamander Another interpretation is that a mission (FM) is a "game". For example, Resurrection of Evil for Doom 3 is a game and can be run with the "+set fs_game d3xp" option. TDM is based on Doom 3 but has since deviated from Doom 3 options, but I think the same definition can hold. Mission authors can tweak and modify their mission to create unique gameplay experiences and mechanics, thus making their own game. TDM is the game engine that the game (FM) is run on. So, here it looks like you are free to use them in your own game. The "Open Source" license for images refers to Creative Commons licenses, I imagine, rather than TDM code being open source. In the mission readme.txt file, it sounds like those images need to be listed under a different license than a Creative Commons license. Also, those textures could be in their own directory with a LICENSE.txt file at its root directory, explaining that it is not a Creative Commons license. That said, I'm not a lawyer, and it's good to reach out to the Textures.com folks about this. I just thought I'd share my interpretation in case it helps with communication with them. I hope you get some good answers!

@datiswous Would you mind reposting those light leaks to?:

Looking at the code, the originals were "pm_mantle_pull 750" and "pm_mantle_pullFast 450". The new "pm_mantle_pull" value is "400". A "pm_mantle_pullFast" value of "450" would be slower than regular pull, not faster. With both being set to "400", they are at least similar. Other than that, it's subjective and the feedback from playtesters was positive. Also, referenced internally here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22256-movementcontrols-settings-in-main-menu/&do=findComment&comment=489158

Would you mind giving more details about this issue? Is it repeatable? Which mission and viewpos? Does it also happen in 2.11?

For those curious about the increased mantle speed:

If you would like the mantle speeds to be similar to 2.11, add the following to your "autoexec.cfg" file: set pm_mantle_hang_msecs "750" set pm_mantle_pull_msecs "750" set pm_mantle_shift_hands_msecs "500" set pm_mantle_pullFast_msecs "450"

I've been asked to post about the increased mantle speed in 2.12 as some folks have been curious about the change. After a lengthy internal discussion along with testing and input by several mission authors, it was agreed internally to increase the mantle speed. But during 2.12 beta testing, we would like feedback on any bugs or issues that you find. The reason for the change was to address feedback from players that mantling was "painfully slow", "slow and clunky", "mantling sucks - it's just slow", and so on. Several mission authors supported making mantling faster, and so the dev team decided to tweak the mantle speed. There were multiple implementations with the final implementation being a compromise. Also, the dev team studied some parkour techniques to ensure that the mantle phases and timings were good enough. The changes include: The original mantle phases were kept as that is what longtime TDM players are used to, and only the duration of some phases were reduced. Changed the pull animation so that it has both acceleration and deceleration rather than just deceleration. Tweaked the swaying back and forth a bit to work better with the increased speed. When the player in forced into the crouch position at the end of a mantle, crouch near the end of the mantle rather than the beginning in order to remove the sudden "dip" of the player's view. A majority of dev team members were against adding a menu setting, so being able to toggle between the old and new mantle speeds will not happen. It is recommended that you try out different "Mantle Roll" values as some prefer "0.1" and others prefer "0.5". We hope you all enjoy this adjusted mantle speed, especially the overhead mantle, which is now more consistent with the other mantle types. Bug tracker: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6343

setviewpos https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Reporting_Problem#Coordinates

Yes, 2.11 added the coordinates to the screenshot filename. Some players change the filename and some websites rename it (e.g. removing spaces between the coordinates or other changes). That can make it hard to know where the player was when an issue was found. Having the coordinates in the filename is helpful, and the new cvar and command can be used as needed.

tdm_show_viewpos cvar and screenshot_viewpos command: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22310-212-viewpos-on-player-hud-and-screenshots/