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Daft Mugi
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Posts posted by Daft Mugi
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7 hours ago, datiswous said:
Btw. during the screenshot I see it shortly displaying the viewpos, maybe this happens too fast or too slow for some reason.
Yep. The implementation is roughly as follows:
tdm_show_viewpos 2; wait; screenshot; tdm_show_viewpos 0
(It's a bit more sophisticated than this, because it sets the ambient gamma and restores the user values.)
That's why you see the viewpos flash on screen, and the "screenshot" is done between viewpos enabled and disabled.
So, it showing the viewpos when bound to F11 and not when bound to KP_SLASH is very odd.
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After having trouble dragging the body where he wanted, the player said, "No. Noooo." (29:09)
Player said, "I'm sorry. I'm not trying to look up there. It's just very awkward to drag bodies." (30:08)
What I see is a player having trouble being stealthy while playing a stealth game, so this video just adds evidence in support of making shouldering the primary action over dragging. I never saw that he figured out how to shoulder a body.
4 hours ago, snatcher said:The player quickly figured out how to drag and manipulate (turn around) bodies and I detect no sign of frustration. The circumstances even lead to a couple of comical moments.
I think we are wanting to optimize for two different scenarios: One is to optimize for a stealth experience, and the other is to optimize for a "comical" experience. If I'm understanding you correctly, you have a strong fascination with body manipulation. Earlier in this thread, you stated:
On 9/26/2023 at 2:27 PM, snatcher said:I don't like the fact that the toying with bodies or body limbs mechanic has been rendered unusable. People that don't use this mechanic to its full extent won't understand the reasons: take a limb and painfully carry the body to another room, hide a body carefully in the most peculiar place and position, recreate a crime or comic scene... Only TDM provides this fun, for those seeking it. The potential of the mechanic is gone for both existing and new players: too much long frob / key press to bother. Don't try to convince me of the opposite.
What you find as "comical", I see as the player suffering with the gameplay and struggling with the controls. Players have written their frustration with the pre-2.12 controls and stopped playing TDM all together. I've already seen players write about their interest in trying 2.12 based on the recent changes, which is huge. They're willing to give it another go, and that's great for our community. I am interested in watching playthrough videos and reading player experiences with the 2.12 version once released. Then, we'll be able to get more feedback about the 2.12 controls.
Body manipulation is still available, and I find that it's even easier to do with the 2.12 controls. @STiFU commented something similar:
On 11/21/2023 at 5:24 PM, STiFU said:I have been doing some playtesting of this feature and I am honestly loving the way bodies are handled now: hold mouse to move it around, release mouse to drop it again (hold-type-grabber). It just feels very natural and somewhat authentic this way. I love it so much [...]
@snatcher, given that body manipulation is so important to you, then I suggest creating a group and creating content about body manipulation. This could be similar to the groups that ghost or ironman the game. For example, Rule #1: Bodies must be dragged. Shouldering bodies is not allowed.
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@datiswous I can't think of or find a reason why this would happen.
It works when bound to other keys, right?
What other keys does it not work with?
What if you press KP_SLASH multiple times? Same result?
Does "tdm_show_viewpos 2" display ok? -
36 minutes ago, datiswous said:
This doesn't work with binding to certain keys. For example if I do:
bind "KP_SLASH" "screenshot viewpos 1.3"It does create the screenshot with the gamma change, but there's no viewpos on the screenshot.
I see there is a missing "_" between "screenshot" and "viewpos". Does it work when the underscore is included, like so:
bind "KP_SLASH" "screenshot_viewpos 1.3"
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9 minutes ago, MirceaKitsune said:
Yet another confusing though less problematic aspect is the toggles not persisting between saves: I have running turned on, do a save, run into trouble and reload, then I'm suddenly slow again. Since crouching is persistent in saves, can the toggles for creeping and running do the same?
Ugh, yeah, the toggle state between walk/run doesn't get saved. It's using the old Doom 3 implementation. I'll take a look.
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5 minutes ago, Partmedia said:
While I prepare patches for these issues, what's the best way of providing patches upstream? As a patch upload here, or something else?
I personally use GitHub gists to share patches for review. That way I can update them more easily.
I format the patch so that it is SVN compatible. I use git locally, so I run the command:
git diff --no-prefix > r0000-my-patch-name.diff
"r0000" prefix is the SVN revision it is based on. For example, https://gist.github.com/daftmugi/41d0324107e8734f364bb3e50ff00794
But perhaps @stgatilov has another suggestion?
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3 hours ago, madtaffer said:
How would it look like with 2.0 or 3.0? Just curious.
Well, it looks quite funny.
The view rolls more than 180 degrees, turning the player into some kind of unnatural monster of sorts.
The cvar to set this is "pm_mantle_roll_mod", and its value has been capped at 1.0 in order to keep the player within the human range. No exorcist needed.
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5 hours ago, chakkman said:
Anyway, my main issue with this and other things which have been pushed here quite aggressively lately is something different.
In what way has any of this been "aggressive"? I ask, because I've tried to be the exact opposite of aggressive as much as possible. If I can improve here, I'd like to know. Have others been aggressive towards you?
5 hours ago, chakkman said:But, that's something the core team of the mod should address (and know), and is probably not something to discuss here in public (and not up to me anyway). I'm in good faith that it will be addressed, because, I don't think it can go on much longer like this.
What are you insinuating here? I ask, because it sounds like you are either displeased with me personally, with the dev team as a whole, or with mission authors. What do you think needs to be addressed exactly? Would you mind making this clear, so we can improve?
If it makes you feel any better, all of the player control and movement issues that I'm aware of that can be addressed have already been addressed. So, I personally don't have anymore player control or movement changes planned at this time.
Regarding this mantle speed change, I proposed it internally and created the original solution. But the final solution was a dev team collaboration, and therefore I'm not the sole contributor of this change. The core team, including myself, already addressed this change. Are those the details that you wanted to read?
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My two cents here is to mimic video streaming services, such as Netflix. They've likely spent a lot of time and money researching subtitles.
The Netflix default is a white font color with a black drop shadow. In the subtitle settings, users can change the font color and enable/disable a background color. We could do the same and provide settings in the menu.
The improvements to both the subtitles and location ring are looking good!
Netflix settings:
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24 minutes ago, snatcher said:
@Daft Mugi, Please spare us from this. You are entitled to your own opinion and vision but you aren't the voice of them players. You sound as if you felt compelled to do it. You decided to step forward now go and put yourself upfront, defend your position, address user concerns and acknowledge criticism. Be real, just like the old guard.
What are you talking about?
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17 minutes ago, snatcher said:
Disclaimer.
By voting in this pool:
- You legitimate the change in its entirety regardless of the setting being voted.
- You legitimate the result of the setting for 100% of the players regardless of the number of votes.
- We reserve the rights to implement whatever we think it's best for you regardless of the result.
This is not true.
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2 hours ago, chakkman said:
May I ask where you got that "feedback from players" from, and who the "several mission authors" supporting making mantling faster are exactly?
The 2.11 (and prior) feedback came from TTLG and Thief discord servers. During early testing, several of these players and Thief FM authors expressed renewed interest in trying TDM and some have become regulars of TDM because of recent changes. I consider that a win for the TDM community, because more players and mission authors are good for us. More mission authors means more missions for us to enjoy; more players means a bigger audience for those mission authors.
(I'm vague here about who the players are for privacy reasons, but you can find them by searching TTLG, Thief discord servers, and TDM discord servers.)
As for the mission authors, the dev team got feedback from them during development of the increased mantle speed in 2.12. The main feedback that was listened to was that mantling should be faster, especially the overhead mantle. As for who they are, perhaps they can chime in here to let you all know.
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All right y'all. We need some good ole data instead of 28 pages of -- well, you know.
The "mantle roll" is the amount the view rolls or tilts during a mantle.
So, if you could be so kind as to:
- Launch TDM 2.12 Beta
- Go to Settings -> Gameplay
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Set "View: Mantle Roll" to:
- 1.0 and test in game (100% of original mantle roll)
- 0.5 and test in game (50% of original mantle roll)
- 0.1 and test in game (10% of original mantle roll)
- Finally, vote for your preferred setting.
The increased mantle speed changed the feel a bit and perhaps the mantle roll would feel better tweaked some to match it.
(Edit: To clarify, this is about a potentially different default mantle roll value. The "View: Mantle Roll" slider in the settings will remain, regardless.)
This thread is for your click-ity click vote on the poll at the top
of this page.
All constructive
comments about the increased mantle speed in 2.12 are welcome on its own, wonderful thread:
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Another interpretation is that a mission (FM) is a "game".
QuoteThe "current game" may be the same as the base game, or it may be the name of another directory under the paths that should be searched for files before looking in the base game. The game directory is set with "+set fs_mod myaddon" on the command line. This is the basis for addons.
For example, Resurrection of Evil for Doom 3 is a game and can be run with the "+set fs_game d3xp" option. TDM is based on Doom 3 but has since deviated from Doom 3 options, but I think the same definition can hold. Mission authors can tweak and modify their mission to create unique gameplay experiences and mechanics, thus making their own game. TDM is the game engine that the game (FM) is run on.
QuoteCan I use the materials in my own (commercial) video game?
Yes, it's allowed to use our materials to create your own free or commercial video game for PC, for consoles, or mobile devices. This is also allowed for materials you have downloaded with a Free account.
It does not matter how the game is distributed or sold (for example through direct sales, Steam, the Apple Store or Google Play). When using the materials in your own computer game, you do not need to mention our website as the source of the materials.
Please note that it is not allowed to release our images under Open Source licenses (even when the materials are modified). If you are working on an game that is released under an Open Source license, you need to release content that has been created using our materials under a closed source license.So, here it looks like you are free to use them in your own game.
The "Open Source" license for images refers to Creative Commons licenses, I imagine, rather than TDM code being open source. In the mission readme.txt file, it sounds like those images need to be listed under a different license than a Creative Commons license. Also, those textures could be in their own directory with a LICENSE.txt file at its root directory, explaining that it is not a Creative Commons license.
That said, I'm not a lawyer, and it's good to reach out to the Textures.com folks about this. I just thought I'd share my interpretation in case it helps with communication with them. I hope you get some good answers!
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@datiswous Would you mind reposting those light leaks to?:
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2 hours ago, STiFU said:
I am surprised to find that pm_mantle_pullFast was actually decreased by 50 ms. I did not catch that during Code-Review. Why was this done? Now the regular pull and the fast pull are almost identical.
Looking at the code, the originals were "pm_mantle_pull 750" and "pm_mantle_pullFast 450". The new "pm_mantle_pull" value is "400". A "pm_mantle_pullFast" value of "450" would be slower than regular pull, not faster. With both being set to "400", they are at least similar.
Other than that, it's subjective and the feedback from playtesters was positive.
Also, referenced internally here:
https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22256-movementcontrols-settings-in-main-menu/&do=findComment&comment=489158 -
On 12/18/2023 at 3:23 PM, snatcher said:
Players can clip through ceilings in some situations
Would you mind giving more details about this issue? Is it repeatable? Which mission and viewpos? Does it also happen in 2.11?
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For those curious about the increased mantle speed:
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If you would like the mantle speeds to be similar to 2.11, add the following to your "autoexec.cfg" file:
set pm_mantle_hang_msecs "750" set pm_mantle_pull_msecs "750" set pm_mantle_shift_hands_msecs "500" set pm_mantle_pullFast_msecs "450"
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I've been asked to post about the increased mantle speed in 2.12 as some folks have been curious about the change.
After a lengthy internal discussion along with testing and input by several mission authors, it was agreed internally to increase the mantle speed. But during 2.12 beta testing, we would like feedback on any bugs or issues that you find.
The reason for the change was to address feedback from players that mantling was "painfully slow", "slow and clunky", "mantling sucks - it's just slow", and so on. Several mission authors supported making mantling faster, and so the dev team decided to tweak the mantle speed.
There were multiple implementations with the final implementation being a compromise. Also, the dev team studied some parkour techniques to ensure that the mantle phases and timings were good enough. The changes include:
- The original mantle phases were kept as that is what longtime TDM players are used to, and only the duration of some phases were reduced.
- Changed the pull animation so that it has both acceleration and deceleration rather than just deceleration.
- Tweaked the swaying back and forth a bit to work better with the increased speed.
- When the player in forced into the crouch position at the end of a mantle, crouch near the end of the mantle rather than the beginning in order to remove the sudden "dip" of the player's view.
A majority of dev team members were against adding a menu setting, so being able to toggle between the old and new mantle speeds will not happen.
It is recommended that you try out different "Mantle Roll" values as some prefer "0.1" and others prefer "0.5".
We hope you all enjoy this adjusted mantle speed, especially the overhead mantle, which is now more consistent with the other mantle types.
Bug tracker: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6343
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3 minutes ago, datiswous said:
What was the console again to move view to a viewpos ?
setviewpos
https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Reporting_Problem#Coordinates
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26 minutes ago, jaxa said:
Was there a specific version of TDM that started putting the coordinates in screenshot file names? Because my current installation does that and now I don't bother with the overlay anymore.
Yes, 2.11 added the coordinates to the screenshot filename.
Some players change the filename and some websites rename it (e.g. removing spaces between the coordinates or other changes). That can make it hard to know where the player was when an issue was found.
Having the coordinates in the filename is helpful, and the new cvar and command can be used as needed.
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tdm_show_viewpos cvar and screenshot_viewpos command:
https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22310-212-viewpos-on-player-hud-and-screenshots/
[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item
in The Dark Mod
Posted
I'll add one thing, which I didn't state earlier because I assumed it was obvious. But I'd like to make it clear.
What is the purpose of dragging a body and body manipulation in this stealth game?
In my opinion, it is a "tool" or "game mechanic" that gives the player the ability to do two things:
In my opinion, the 2.12 controls enhance the experience for those two scenarios, because the controls give a quick way to grab a body, drag it into position, and release it quickly and precisely.
However, most of the time that fine-tuned control is not necessary for this stealth game. Shouldering and dropping a body can work well enough, hence why it became the primary action. That said, being able to precisely drag a body is a great enhancement to just shouldering, and it's something players can learn and appreciate given time.