RPGista

Hahaha, I've been reading some of the process youve been going through with the stalagmite, and I must say that it's crazy work, it all seems pretty complicated. But I applaud your effort! One thought however regarding level of detail is that sometimes making too fine a texture might even make it look out of place, when compared to other models/assets/environment textures (its even clear on the screenshot, though a lot can be attributed to differences in scale between the model and the "background"). Im sure its going to be a great model though.

Very nice... I really like the true details on the floor, the narrow gothic windows and steps on the wall. And dont worry about me, Im just to lazy to go through all the basics again, hopefully I'll have time while you writte more of your tutorial. If you are indeed taking requests, one little thing that could be nice are cornices and such details, either from extruded lines or modeling - the corners and intersections could pose problems, aswell as texturing them. You can actually create some nice cornices with patches inside Dark Radiant, but I never tried anything like that in a subdivision modeler - only in a nurbs modeler. EDIT: Something like this - but just an example, shouldnt be anything nearly as intricate:

To me that looks fantastic as it is Ungoliant. Models generally look like crap in ambient light but this one kept an interesting appearance. I guess adapting (coloring) to the most likely to be used textures for caves is all that needs to be done now?

Yep, seems to be it... There are 3 flee points in my map, one I know to be accessible and working (seen it happening), one never really seemed to work (both same team), and one is untested (for thieves, but never got any of them to flee from combat so havent tested it).

Seems to be a bug in my map regarding flee points. I had the problem before, all of a sudden the character (an unarmed lady) stopped going to the original flee point I had built labouriously with two guards waiting to be called upon, hidden from the player. I figured I had done something wrong with visportals or some other ellusive TDM/Doom factor, and decided before release to create a new one, also complex set up for her (this time she would aproach some neutral npcs nearby, there would be triggers along the way to make them agressive towards the player if that happened), I tested it a couple of times and it worked perfectly. Now I was testing some other thing this week (looking for bugs actually), and she wont move again, when alerted, just scream like a pathless AI. Its rare, but sometimes she'll even run aimlessly and cower, ignoring the flee point completely. Another instance of the problem is that another woman AI will not run to her flee point a room away (her husband bedroom), even though the path to there is compeltely functional (I can get the husband to follow me throughout the apartment) and the flee point node is not close to anything. There's no additional info on the wikis about flee points, I wonder what makes them malfunction? Should I place them over the ground, on the ground, sinking into the ground? Are patches on the floor a problem? How far from objects or walls?

Not sure where to put this, so I thought about this AI thread. There seems to be a problem with one AI alerting another nearby AI with help screams. There's a scene in my mission where a lady comes out of a room where a lord is seated. If I alert her by stepping into the light before she closes the door behind her, she'll scream for help every second or so (she refuses to go to the flee point by the way, but thats another question); the other AI who is 3 meters away will continously raise his alert level, only VERY slightly, saying things like "what was that?" and "huh?"; after hearing him say that like 8 times in a row, I thought I should report it. He should be able to get to investigate level at least, instantly. The other AI is asking for help half a room away. Oh, and I just remembered: it is still possible to cause the AI to assume weapon drawn animation without actually drawing their weapon (I believe they even try to block as if holding one, though I havent seen them attacking without it); it seems to happen if you hit them right before or while they are trying to draw their swords.

Really liked the small room example, it seemed easy enough to follow, but the little knowledge I had with Blender seems to have vanished and Im back to aimlessly hitting keys and missing common features Im used to in other programs and are probably all hidden inside Blender's crazy layout... Gonna have to go through all the basics again before I can come back with my completed exercise.

Lots of interesting, creative and detailed scenes there Pranqster, Im also really looking foward to this. I really liked the work you did on the furnace, the xaman model, and you gotta love the apples on the tree. A healthy diet indeed. I must agree with Melan however, regarding the big hall - spans of more than 8 meters (lets say 10 for the sake of a game) are unreal and just kinda give you the feeling that something is not right, lacks "weight". You should always break those spans with columns, or you should make the ceiling not horizontal, but a vaulted one, like these: Oh yeah, and do not rely on the ambient light to render your room, it dulls everything and I just hate how it looks! Fill that place with lights, let the player look for a place to hide if he can.

Shaping up nicely, all i need now is time to sit down and actually follow it...

It seems like something that happened to me too, first in a test map, and I can still see a few sometimes in my map. The first was caused by brush clipping operations. Bring a candle close to the offending wall and you would get rays like that. In my map there is no brush clipping and they still happen, specially inside the merchant's house - the house, specially the staircase area, has a lot of small, inclined, irregular brushes (at the time I was still creating details with brushes), so my only guess is that it is caused by them, either fragments or complex shaped brushes (maybe simplified by dmap? I dont udnerstand this very much). I only got rid of it by remaking the wall in the first case, wasnt able to heal the second comepletely even after remaking major areas of the house 2 times.

So it begins, brilliant! Cant wait for that. Damn you blender, I'll learn you yet!

Flood - Thank you very much for the detailed review, for taking the time and for expressing your opinions so thoroughly! This is really awesome to know. Im glad you enjoyed the mission, the little surprises, and the atmosphere of it. Tha architecture was of course a big part of it for me, to create a detailed world that felt like you should touch it and felt natural to be in - thats how the "plataform" section should be, for me, a part of interacting with a complex world geometry, rather than just going around a set of urban "corridors". I understand that many are finding it frustrating. It actually comes as a surprise for me overall because Im not even good at mantling (barely made it through the training section in the tutorial mission), but I guess it just isnt how people are used to play... Another thing that often surprises me is when I read about players who associate being spotted/discovered by an AI as instant fail - I never do that, I always deal with the consequences and only load if Im killed or if it clearly breaks the map; if I fall when trying to get to the apartment, on that fireplace square in my map, I just draw my sword and let the archer have it, then try again; if Im heard when clearing the debris before trying to climb the stairs inside the barn, I just go to war with the two thieves in there; most of the situations in my map were thought like that, if you get discovered, someone will call for help and your going to have problems, but there's no failling because of that, there is never a "dont be seen" objective mentality for me. The equipment point is a very valid one, though I promise you it wasnt meant as anything in itself. The map was supposed to be inside a unspecific fantasy period, not necessarily inside TDM universe. Though I actually slipped a not well known city name in there from the tdm world, and you can clearly see that the priest is a "builder", the first was simply a slip of mind, and the second a necessity; the priest should be able to defend himself, the only clerical models available are of "builders" and their hammers, so i couldnt escape from that. You'll notice no mention of the religion anywhere though. So the player here is not the Thief guy, just a nameless hero in a gothic/medieval fantasy world. There are no tools of the trade besides the lockpicks (though you do get the spyglass on easy, which is not "easy", just gives you a few more items to find) because it is supposed to be a sober realistic world, without any knowledge of fancy steampunk equipment; that was all I meant. Im glad you liked the story and theme, it was also supposed to have a sad tone, with diffuse characters that are not necessarily bad/villains. But it seems to me you missed one readable, because you werent able to enter the priest house! Thats the house with the gated door - of course you can go inside, you just have to open the gate first (the problem being that it is hard to tell when it is highlighted - its better just to face it dead on, and aim for the steel bars, not the space between them). There are a couple of spaces there for you to see too, I like that house... Hope you will try the aleternative route to the one you took the get to the church (Im assuming the derelict building) and enter the priest chambers this time. And hahaha, dont listen to Sotha, raymeld, he's joking! No more "obstacles" after you reach the churchyard, promess.

Good luck. If you get to a cemetery, your good to go, no more jumping from then on.

To tell you the truth, far as I know, only Baddcog and Nosslak are likely to be able to answer those questions here, not sure if they are following this topic, if you want I can post this on the editors forum instead?

Raymeld - Route 1 (through the derelict building): http://youtu.be/t8g67kLt3q0 Route 2 (through the couple's kitchen): http://youtu.be/PE9xaGfnaZ4 Reading the first post can help you further.

Player is invisible in shadows; can move silently under the nose of enemies; can KO anyone with a single hit, never missing; has a sword that carries bonus damage when you hit someone by surprise; can kill armored enemies fast by targetting open body areas; has anti-personnel mines, has two instantly incapacitating arrows (fire and gas), and steel heads can also kill with one shot, from a good distance, from the shadows, so enemies never know what hit them. I would say he is pretty deadly, and rightfully so, as "assassination" types of missions is one of the themes with the most potential in this mod.

Sorry I cant help with your questions, but oh man this is gonne be awesome! You might just force me to learn Blender after all, because I think creating pieces of architecture for the game is a fascinating topic and would be a nice intro to expanding spatial possibilities for future mission makers! This video might give you an idea or two, its from an interesting Doom3 project called Thievious:

I finished it yesterday, here's my opinion:

Then it is explained - I raised the melee difficulty a couple of months ago, never knew it would have an impact on damage levels. There seems to be quite a difference between normal and hard, I wonder how things are in expert? Might go for a few tests. As for melee fights being easy - they are not, nor are they frustrating. The excitment comes from having to finish it as quickly as possible. The system used is quite nice and still has a lot of potential yet to be explored, in terms of small timings and small animations that could be added - its based on counters, so when a guard hacks at you, you block it and hit in the opposite blow direction. You should be able to kill the guy with one hit because that makes it feel like a brutal fight and a deadly character. It is silly to see the guard fighting and taunting with a face that is now a bloody mess. Again, you are supposed to be a deadly guy, one hit kills are essential for that feeling, this coupled with metal plates and armor mofifiers makes it perfect, as it rewards players that can be very accurate; you still get to feel you are dangerous even against heavily protected enemies, if you can find an opening, its all finished. Fights against two are pretty difficult, made possible only by using accuracy as I said earlier. The same for 3 guys, possible only if you kill one right from the start and concentrate on the other two. I dont use auto parry, with it it is a LOT easier to defeat them. Thanks for clearing that up. I would still like to have the option to increase the melee difficulty without changing damage levels (if anything, increasing them too!), but I guess I can just put it back to normal.

So I was playing Serioustoni mission and I have been noticing that it seems very hard to score a one hit kill in melee fights anymore (if at all). I used to be able to take out a guard with a good hit on the head/chest and now you need to hit the head at least two times, chest seems more, but not sure. Even the arrows seem quite a bit less effective - idle AI will still fall with a headshot, but alerted ones will need at least two arrows on the head, many more on the body. Let alone realism - the TDM thief used to be a lot more deadly (or am I just getting a wrong impression/imagining things here?) If the damage levels were indeed lowered, isnt it unfortunate? It would make it pretty much impossible to defeat more than one enemy at a time because the player would never be able to take anyone out instantly; any fight would carry on for longer and loose excitment because it seems you can now be hit 4-5 times before getting killed yourself (should be 2-3 tops)... I always liked fights to be fast and furious, one, two hits and its over. Would there be a way to raise the damage levels? I could be wrong, its pretty late and I should be sleeping.

VERY nice... Im tempted to say lets wait for the new version, for the reasons you already expressed - it would be nice to play a mission with strong gameplay with the new features (I want to throw rocks at annoying guards!). We do have 3 missions to play with this month, plus Biker's, so it would also be nice to spread them out a bit more.

Damn, you guys are cold... I hope you decided to take out the gang or they will have overun the house by now and the couple never had a chance to escape or defend themselves, being in coma as you left them! Joking. BlueSky - in a sense, I agree completely (thanks for the compliments and incentive, by the way); you do not need to twist TDM and/or try to get out of its offered world of choices, because the basic package (stealth and lootable site explorations) already allows for a rewarding gaming experience. But to tell you the truth, I havent seen that much experimenting with TDM, the bolder case was Winter Harvest as far as I know. I think it comes down a lot of the times to a certain particular "vision" you as an author wants to express in the map, something you believe is unique, THATs what keeps you trying and also what keeps you from achieving (because its mostly impossible to put your imagination into Dark Radiant without some cold process of compromise and simplification). Im just starting to play the other two missions, so I cant speak for their ambitions, but if you think about mine, there were a couple of events inside the map that were absolutely essential to convey the "experience" that I had imagined for this little fantasy world, and you can safely say they took a disproportional amount of time and effort to be learnt and implemented. It wasnt a naiive choice though, Im not that fanatic about Thief gameplay to tell you the truth - I like it, but I would always prefer to play a mission with strong storytelling over a mission with really challenging stealth factor. Considering I didnt have any particular idea how to create an interesting challenge in that kind of game (with already many interesting missions in that department from guys like Sotha and Fidcal), it seemed natural for me to tend to a mission based mostly on graphic storytelling. So I guess you could say I see missions more as organic things that react to the player and are built around him, instead of complex environments that you have to learn and work inside of. Im always expecting variations in theme and style, more "assassination" missions, or rescuing, or with a radical twist before the climax. Anyway, it was indeed a very fulfilling experience to be able to get something like that built and having loads of people playing it. I recommend it to everyone (putting their own imagination in a "physical" form like that).

If I understood correctly, the problem seems to be that AI cant reach the player and detect him in complete darkness because the player can keep the object hovering between himself and the AI, never allowing him to come close (all other situations would just mean AI coming to investigate the area, allowing the player to do whatever). According to the TDM 1.8 version feature list, objects thrown against AI will alert them (possibly hurting them too, very nice feature by the way!); wouldnt an object held by the player act exactly in the same way, if you hit (touch) an AI with a held object, it should alert it, and not be ignored by the AI (like in the case described). The difference between alerting an AI with a thrown object across the room or hitting it in arms length with a held one is that alerted AI have much increased senses and will instantly see you if you are that close, while if you are distant enough, he might get fully alerted, but still dont know where you are (thus possibly eliminating the problem of "identifying that the player is doing it")? So what about: - AI sees the object, goes to investigate. - Considering the player is hidden and leaves the object there and keeps hidden, the AI will investigate the area, and give up after a time (like suspicious door logic). - If the player keeps moving the object about, 1- the AI will get so close as to identify him and pursue; 2- AI will get hit by the object, get fully alerted and (most likely) identify the player instantly because of the raised awereness caused by the alert status?

Both you guys - point taken. And Sotha's maps will surely be a testament to what great gameplay design can do; The Beleaguered Fence is one of my favourite missions, robust AI placement all around, interesting space structure, changes in rythim during the mission... Brilliant work. Will be looking foward to your future creations, eargerly. I might have time to look into the mission in the weekend, so if anyone has issues to report, this would be the right time. Im particularly interested in knowing if anyone else got Grayman's problem of having the wife, inside the first (red brick) house, staying put in front of the sitting man after their conversation - she should get out of the room after it (the whole conversation should take about 20-30 seconds, then she'll leave).