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Lol! Ren and I were having this very same discussion on IRC. I thought the same thing...I imagined the map spinning and getting smaller as if it were fading into the distance. Renzatic and I have been playing some more. Here's a version that I modified from one of his above...I centered it because the left side was looking a little empty as it was. And this is the right proportion for the menu size as well. Also went back to the classic Thief fonts. I personally would be quite happy with this as our main Menu screen.

I was also thinking that having more than one picture at a time could be cluttered but I had an idea on the way home from the movie theatre. It was inspired by something Renzatic showed me earlier, a set of blue prints superimposed on the intro screen over the existing picture. To me it looked like the map was fading out and the other picture was replacing it. With that in mind, if we had something like this, with the image only taking up the left hand side.....(sorry, had to borrow this pic) ...we could fade images in and out of view. Imagine this, it's really dark and forboding, with the exception of the flickering candlelight...and while this is happening, perhaps we could have the sound of a light wind howling. As the candle flickers, the images on the menu very slowly fade in and out. A map, a museum, the exterior of a mansion. Then like Springheel said, you hear the candle being blown out when you choose an option such as loading a game. Very moody work here guys.

We definitely should have some kind of animation going. A flickering light is a good one. I'm not sure I like the idea of having a picture in the background and then another illustration on top of it though...that might be too cluttered. Tell me if this sounds corny or not...I was just imagining this in my head...I saw darkness, then the flickering sound of a flare being lit up. The menu springs into view, with the light flickering and strange shadows dancing across the page. If a sub-menu is selected, we have a page turning sound, or one parchment is put on top of the other. If the start game is selected, there is a "whoof" as the flame is blown out, and the screen goes dark. Then the mission starts loading. What do you think? I think it could be cool. (btw, two things Ren...what filter did you use and can I get that parchment texture from you?)

That's too funny. We should seriously consider that title. It's a very sly, tounge in cheek, reference and I don't think it can get us in any trouble. It's not that much different than Irrational games taking "System Shock" and turning it into "Bio Shock". I think that it even carries a message to not take things so seriously. Would we risk it? I pulled that menu from a screen shot of S-Holes retro menu just to set the stage for that little mock up, but when it comes down to it, I think the parchment really works. Actually, it would really tie the style of the game together since we would definately want to have in between mission briefings in the Style of T1 and T2. Yeah, I'm quite fond of it, this really seems to gel.

I like it! (I also considered 'Stop Thief" as a title. ) This is another very valid style to go with, as long as it is sufficiently different from the first two games. Very retro, and sets a nice steampunk tone. But you see how it wouldn't fit well to have the main menu this style and then the mission loading screen be parchment. We will have to make a decision.

If we were really ambitious we could do a nice 3D hud showing our Thief getting ready for a long nights work. Since Doom 3's frontend is already 3D it wouldn't be much of a problem to implement, but it could take awhile to do right. Like you'd have the options lining the left side of the screen and you'd start out in the center of your apartment/hideout. Clicking start would have you walking automatically (and in first person) to the door, opening it, and pushing out into the black space beyond. Going to options, which would be where you set your controls, video options and other miscellany, would have you walk over to a workbench where the thief polishes and tweaks all his tools. Loading a game or selecting an FM would take you to a bookshelf where it'd bring up the book...similar to how we'd do it ingame. Like I said it's ambitious, but it could be pulled off with a little work. I could do the map fairly easily, but we'd need someone to help with the programming.

You can either select a different sized grid by going to the grid menu at the top of the screen or hitting 1-7 (or shift + 2,3,& 4 for the really small scales). Because of the funky scale Doom 3 uses you'll find yourself working on grid sizes 2 & 4 the most once you get used to the editor. Edit: Grab the map here: http://208.49.149.118/TheDarkMod/maps/ The updated speculars and the accompanying material file are all packed in. Edit 2: Damnit, just realised I forgot something..hold off on getting it for a sec.

the screen looks really great indeed I think the taffers on ttlg will love this room.

You wanna know what's missin from that screen shot? Loot on the fireplace

Cool. Seeing the fireplace casting the shadows from the chairs like that... its just beautiful. To me, it looks like it could pass off as a completed Thief screen shot as is!!

I just got through playing the newest Painkiller demo, this one taking place on a military base instead of the usual gothic evil surroundings. So there I am, running across an open airfield with 2 tanks and about 4 heavy gun emplacements gunning for my ass. "I gotta take cover before I get smeared", I think, and run towards the only cover I have...an open B52 cargo hold in the middle of the airfield. I'm in there, safe from the tanks and big guns for the time being...but I have to contend with something that's far more scary. There has to be at least...I dunno...50 of these creepy WWI era gasmasked solders charging at me from both ends of the hold while I'm standing smack in the middle. So I do the only thing I can do...shoot a whole helluva bunch. It's was total carnage, plain and simple. Guys getting mowed down left and right by my shotgun while canisters, barrels, pieces of metal, guns, body parts, everything flies about EVERYWHERE. There isn't a single inch of the screen vacant of action while I cut paths through soldiers that just won't quit coming. I'm dancing back and forth trying my best to stay alive, noticing that FINALLY the numbers are starting to thin...by the end of that 3 minutes in hell I had to have killed at least 150 guys. And that was when I decided to buy this game. Not even the original Dooms can match the pure action this game has to offer. It is crazy fucking crazy and awesome beyond description. Oh...I died about 8 minutes later holed up in a repair bay just a few yards away from the B52.

No problem. I Used GIMP and now I'm uploading it. Resizing the images is not so good, ebcause I didn't want to show the entire screen. Only the part that is of interest to the mod.

Even with body awareness, the gem would be required. Players simply aren't going to want to constantly look down at thier body to check if they're in the shadows or not. We don't have peripheral vision in the game, which is the only way that you could really check to see if your in shadows constantly without a meter. We could do it the way that Riddick did it, with the screen getting bluer the deeper in shadows you get, but the goal here is to make something for thief players, I like the design posted above, and think pursuing that would be the best solution.

I think the spinning crystal is too far the other way. Too minimalist. Just a pocket compass of suitable vintage would do. Nothing fancy. I do like pakmannens gem. That kind of proportion and perspective might fit very nicely. (surely how much screen real estate a round gem takes up depends on how big it is?)

I think the disadvantage of a round lightgem is, that I'd cover more of the screen, than an oblong gem. my suggestion: we let the player choose, if he wants to have the compass permanently on or not. I belive that would be quite simple - it would be just a check box in the options menu.

Wacom!!!!!!!!!!! They are like, the Creative Labs Soundblaster of the Tablet world. I have one http://www.wacom-asia.com/products/graphir...ire3_index.html (of course I have pasted you the Asia-pacific link, but just go to www.wacom.com and choose the correct reigon) That is the consumer model. Cost me $150 AU and has pressure sensitivity, and a cordless, batteryless pen, with the tip, 2 thumb buttons, and erraser head, completely mappable to any function in any program. Although the program has to support pressure sensitivity to benifit from the tip pressure. PhotoShop is great. I highly recommend it. It is powerful enough for your needs and very cost effective. I think anything more expensive is only for highly paid proffessionals, and most of us wouldn't make use of the features. That's only my opinion, but I do own the consumer one, and it does everything I want. Regarding your new concept art Darkness_Falls; ahh, colour dodge - looks like you've accustomed yourself to it quite nicely I think those look miles better than the originals. Colour dodge can be applied as a blending mode for an entire layer; you can get other kinds of effects that way, by duplicating your artwork onto a new layer and giving that new layer a different blending mode. There is a new game http://www.crashday-game.de/pages_e/news.htm - check the screenshots - the artist has taken the screen shots and done some layering effects to make them look like photos, not that they had much work to do with making it look realistic, heh, but they've obviously used photoshop to give them "photograph" looks - how everything is sort of blue-ish, and goes darker around the edges. Just another way of creating mood.

I don't know if my art would be the right type but I can try as long as it's not too difficult. I have a few examples at Webshots.com. My screen name there is bablee1. Don't know if this link will work. I am in the community section and the album is called Barb's Art. I can send you some samples by email if you want. I don't have a website yet. My email addy is hawklette7@hotmail.com http://community.webshots.com/scripts/edit...albumID=3893891 Good Luck!!

Thanks for the feedback, Oofnish! I'm glad you could listen to them. I think it's important to point out to everyone, though, that these were just quick samples I put toegether to find out if people thought my keyboard had the potential to help out with this project or not. The sounds were by no means supposed to be "songs," since I was just trying different sounds out on my keyboard and throwing them all together. I only spent maybe an hour or so creating all three of these files. I could've put them all in one big 10MB file, but I wanted to section it up for lower-bandwidth users. If anything, I'd classify these files as a hodge-podge of a bunch of random sounds thrown together. I did not aim to have any bit of continuity whatsoever. Aside from just general "ambience," I may also be creating stuff for menus, in-game melodies, very specific in-game situations, player movement sounds, player interaction sounds, weapon use sounds, steam-punk machinery, etc. So, by me putting these files together, it was meant to give you a simple taste of different sounds my keyboard is capable of. When the melody or sounds in my files all the sudden shift from one thing to another, it's meant to showcase the wide variety of capabilities my keyboard has. Or when a sound in file #2 all the sudden goes from runblyness to weirdness (juxtaposed) -- for example -- I was just trying different effects. This is necessary, because as a sound person, you're listening for everything 'in-between' as a possible resource to re-create and use in some way. Every little second of sound in those files could be used for something. For example, if you take 1/2 a second of a bell sound and stretch it out to 3 seconds and lower the pitch two octaves, you might be able to cut a part of that resulting sound out to create a footstep-across-grass sound or an arrow launching sound or something. (I actually don't know what sound it would make, but this is just a theoretical example to show you what I listen for when I'm listening to the above files.) I wasn't suggesting these files be used for the DarkMod either. It's simply way too early to tell, and the sounds would need to be way more polished. For sounds, in general, I think it's best to hold off creating anything final for a long time. We need to get a lot more concept artwork done and possibly create some in-game scenes before we get on the track of what ambience or loops will be used. For ambience and music, it will likely be imperative to actually play through a rough draft of the DarkMod game before deciding on which sounds/music to use. I know a lot of my inspiration will actually come when I'm walking through a level and seeing what I encounter. My imagination will run wild at that point. In the end, the clock bells you're referring to (if they're to be used) would likely be used for the game menu or an in-game scene near a clocktower or something, but it wouldn't repeat forever in a neverending looped sequence. It would maybe strike 12 times for a clocktower sequence... or maybe just a couple times for a game opening sequence or splash screen. Hopefully you won't have to worry too much -- I think I'll be pretty good at avoiding repitious sounds that shouldn't be indefinitely repetitious, or that stand out as being repitious. Oh yeah, and the piano in file #1? LOL. I threw that 'piece' together in 2 minutes. The rhythms are off and everything. I was just trying to make a somewhat coherent 'melody' that was 'vaguely' reminiscent of a piano piece that was used in Thief: Deadly Shadows. If I were to actually create a piece for DarkMod, I'd actually spend a lot more time on it than 2 minutes ... and I probably wouldn't use a piano piece from T:DS as my inspiration. Or any piano sound for that matter

I might be able to push the brushcount a bit farther then. Since Thief isn't quite so fast paced, and most of the NPC's won't be casting fireballs or summoning more crap and loading the screen with a billion effects, then I should be able to pull it off. It's also pretty unlikely that you'll see more than 4 guards onscreen at once... But the first thing I need to do is get more ram. 512 megs just isn't cutting it anymore, and the editor likes to crash on me when my available ram gets too low. So to fix this little problem I'm gonna fire up the old Poor Renzatic Fund (The PRF) again so now you all can donate to a most worthy cause....getting me more stuff!

I have no doubt about that. And while seeing a full courtyard through a transparent pane of glass is undeniably cool, you always have to take performance issues into consideration. You might have so much detail down there that an opaque window would be the better option. I'd rather go with highly detailed areas that are somewhat closed off from each other, IE you can't see inside a house from outside or outside from the inside, than sparse open areas. Visportals can help with this a little bit, but a few sacrifices will have to be made to make sure it runs well for everybody. I'm not saying we can't use transparent windows, we'll just have to be selective about how we use em. I remember a map for Vamp I made that had almost 2000 brushes on display in a single screen...ran great on my comp, but it crashed the game for alot of other people. Since then I've tried learning how to keep something that looks good in check with it's performance.

Hey there Subjective Effect! Good to see you popping in. Even if there were to be a Thief DS level editor I don't think it should deter us from our goal. Thief deadly shadows is a fun game, but in many ways it lacks a certain thiefness. The early concept shots that we have on display here have captured the look of the previous games but with updated graphics. I think once things fall into place with the SDK the atmosphere will follow. It already seems to be there in the screen shots. Since I'm in early prep for a Thief 2 fan mission I'm primed to get some voice sets done for the Dark Mod. I'm thinking I'll do two versions as I'm recording to save some time and that way should a Deadly shadows editor ever arrive they can be used just as easily with that.

I know what you mean. I mean, I have never played Thief 3 YET (still trying to get my upgrade) but from the screen shots, it doesn't look like the original games the way Renzatic's and BlackThief's work (in Renzatic's screenshots) look. I'm still trying to work out why this is. One thing that popped into my head is that it actually looks more angular than Thief 3, so it looks a bit older, like the old Thief 2 and 1? But looking at some of the indoors screenshots, Renzatic's room is just lacking the other details and bump/specular mapping that make the room feel more "rounded". I think it's the colour palette. Renzatic's screenshots feel very warm, very fiery and orange. The Thief 3 screenshots, while still cool and thiefy, seem more "over-cast grey", even indoors where the torches are. I'm sure these texture artists know this kind of thing already, but I'm going to make a texture palette mention in the "Targets" thread.

great screen can't wait to see this room with objects - some nice torches on the wall, some paintings, a fire (I believe doom3 has great fire-effects), a plant in the corner, a candle on the fireplace.....uhh....I'm dreaming

to be honest I don't like this proposal. It just doesn't look like a lightgem anymore. I thought, that we wanna give the taffers the real thief-feeling back, that they sometimes missed in thief 3. I added NewHorizon's lightgem into Renzatic's test-screen - I think THAT looks like Thief, doesn't it ? http://www.dark-project.com/BlackThief/light-gem-test.jpg