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I think the future players of the game should be able to give their input. (as long as they agree with my point of view - if they don't, then fuck them) I'm more inclined to give the public what I think they should have, rather than want they want. I don't trust them to make decisons for themselves, they've become too docile and apathetic to the generic production line of worthless brainwashing games that have endless shelf space devoted to them, paid for by huge amounts of corporate money. That isn't a good thing for the mind. Only lazy developers give the public want they want, because it's the easy way to make a quick buck and become artificially popular.

When I say 'our game' I mean our campaign.

I wouldn't say they have no place in the game. Someone could easily make an FM where you have to sneak thru a battlefield camp which would have many tents set up. Or there could be an FM where you must sneak thru a house with paper walls, reminiscent of Japanese architecture. Of course you'd fail at ghosting since you'd leave huge suspicious holes in the walls, but we're trying to support all playstyles.

That would be morphing. The way vertex animaton has to work in doom, is that very vertex in the mesh is turned into a bone at export time. I doubt paper walls of tents will have any place in our game, but it could work for paintings/curtains etc.

I think vertex animation is what's happening all the time in the game. The term vertex animation as I know it is just a way of animating. It's instead of mesh animation where you store a new mesh for every frame in the animation.

Everyone's talking about Serious Sam 2. I thought they just announced that game. so how could you guys be playing it.

if you want a good SHOOTER play painkiller :)that game is FUN:) i liked d3 as it started( headphones,playing in dark) but later it wasnt any frightening..and the end..well i dont think it was any good

Once again I remind you that we're making this game for a fan community, who aren't going to accept guns just because they can't properly put into words exactly why they find the idea of them unappealing in this world. You won't be able to debate it with them, they just won't like it and switch off. Guns just aren't interesting in the same way steampunk creations and ancient medieval religious orders are. They're too much a part of our world, and rather boring because of it.

The First Person Sneaker and First Person Shooter are very different games, one not being necessarily better than the other, so you can't really compare them. Fun comes from being surprised, and the FPS has that in spades (especially Doom 3). Thief is never really surprising; its more comfortable and predictable. You slide into Thief as you would a hot bath, while in Doom 3 you're constantly on alert. Of course Thief has its tense moments, especially if you're found, but the point of the game is to avoid these. So while Doom 3 is more 'fun', Thief is more comfortable and relaxing.

Well oDD, you can call it "eating anything", but the rest of us call it "having diverse taste". Your analogy for fast food isn't appropriate. I wouldn't say I can't get enough of FPSs, its just that there are a few good ones out there. Doom 3 isn't the best of them by far, but it has its good qualities. Look at it this way - me and my 2 brothers play Thievery UT, its the most adrenalin inducing and exciting game we can ever play, for all the reasons we play Thief, except to the power of 25 since its involving real humans as guards and Thieves. We also play Serious Sam 2 on co-op. It would seem to be another "simple FPS" but its just excecuted so flawlessly and it keeps the action coming "OMG the horizon is crawling with a wave of enemies again!" and throws in some really cool unique bits, like the part where you start at the top of the tower and the floors explode one by one at intervals, so you fall down a floor at a time in a pile of rubble, or the time you're all in a HUGE tube with gravity pulling outwards, so you're all running around the walls of it, its really trippy. Serious Sam 2 is exciting and fun, probably not as much as Theivery UT, but is exciting in a way that Thievery UT could never be, because it's different. And most people like variety in their lives.

One thing i do grant ID is that they stayed true to their game - Doom. They made it just as it always was, so people who did'nt like it, well thats their problem.

The worst I can say about it is: It was so uninspired that it doesn't stick in my mind. T1/T2 does. That doesn't mean that it is really bad, but I wouldn't count it as good. I guess if I had only played TDS I would have said "Ok. Now lets look for the next game." I doubt I would have sticked to Thief as I do now.

You guys are a bunch of fuckers, now squirming around in the dirt grasping for desperate arguments ranging from - 'having a few gurds with matchlock guns will tunn teh game into call of duty' 'If we're having 600 year old muskets, then me want dragons in to' 'guns wouldn't be no good nor nothing cus enemy wizards could do x y or z on them and stuff' Pathetic. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not so dumb and blinded by your own biased opinions that you actually need me to waste time with the obvious counter argument for any of those worthless escuses for arguments. The actual reason you don't want guns of any description, is that you don't want any on principal, you just don't 'like the idea of them', so just say that instead of making up those silly nonsense random sentences.

Sorry to re-post, I just wanted to respond more clearly to Oddity: So you're proposing that blackpowder didn't exist on our continent, say, but it has recently become available thru trade with another land. This is believable, I'll admit. However, what I was trying to argue is: Think about how long it would take the Mechanites to make a modern firearm after getting their hands on the formulation for black powder from this other land? With their knowledge of mechanics, I don't think it would take longer than a few years. At that point, guns would become the driving force of change in our setting instead of Steam. @Macsen: I don't think you can class steambots as "supernatural" and guns as "not." (Unless we specifically say that steambots work with magic.. I prefer to leave it unexplained myself ) They are both what I'd call "alternate history." IE, modern developments that were developed much earlier in the overall history of technology than they were in real-world history. The thing that makes the bots fun (IMO) is that they were developed by a Victorian society, hand crafted to look like fearsome creatures instead of say modern tanks. I guess that's kind've what Steampunk is all about: earlier advances in technology that take place in a different society, with the values of "earlier" societies on our world (e.g., dueling, honor, aristocracy, fascination with the supernatural, etc). [EDIT] More reasons I don't like guns from a gameplay perspective: Why couldn't the player use one? I know we are being stealthy, but suppose you KO one guard carrying a pistol who didn't get a shot off (so it's still loaded and ready to fire). The guard's unconscious body knocks some stuff over as it falls and alerts 5 close by guards in other rooms who all run into your room. So we have a fire arrow as a "last resort" for this situation. I would think it would be completely rational for the player to pick up the dropped pistol and take a shot at the first guard thru the door, who might also be armed with a pistol. At that point tho, the game might as well be an FPS. Actually I think this would be kind've interesting to play as a third party FM, if the gun was well-done, aimed with iron sights (not a crosshair) and inaccurate and everything, but I would rather keep guns out of our "standard" setting.

well then maybe he'll make a better game next time! all visuals, no meat. Of course thats just what I hear.

I often wonder how many people will buy doom3 just to play this mod... Carmack will shit himself if he finds out that fifty percent of the overall sales of doom3 were due to a mod that is the complete antithesis of his game. Hylix.

And I see no reason why the origin of guns has to be explained in intricate detail, when the advanced bots and cameras of the mechanists just suddenly appeared from nowhere in T2. Guns are only about 1000 times more fitting, likely and believable than bots and cameras, but yet again I hear shouts of " LGS were Gods, they never made a bad decision, everything they introduced into the game was perfection, and belongs there 100%, anyone else's idea, no matter how realistic or likely, would make a joke of the entire Thief universe'

The world has sailing ships and docks, so there's obviosuly trading going on. THe recipe for gunpower is extremely simple anyway, and the three ingredients are common. You can easily imagine the mercenary armies bringing back many guns from battles, and selling or trading them. Our game is set at the dawn of a new age, when gunpower and the gun is about to take over from the bow, but both yet co-exist.

Are these screenshots? Looks more like concept art to me. And: Yes! I do care for Gothic, because I really liked that game. And I already mentioned it in many of our discussions as a source of inspirations because the AI and many other things were really done as good as it can possibly get.

don't get me wrong - i'm all for innovation. it's just that i imagine that particular idea to make the gameplay a lot more complicated and frankly a bit tedious. while you might enjoy that (playing for the challenge of it, not just for fun) i and others most certainly wouldn't. i also think that -as this is a thief-inspired mod, not something completely new- most people just want to feel right at home with the game-mechanics we've grown to love over the years, no matter how tried and true they are. kind regards gleeful

Okay, I'm back from a week-long road trip and ready to comment. ( 1 ) I don't think the flintlock (gun/rifle) would fit well in the environment/atmosphere we're trying to create, personlly. I'm way with SH on this one. The only way I'd see a gun/rifle working is if the thief goes through a warp of some sort -- or visits a parallel universe -- and is transported to the King Louis XIV time & place where people go fox hunting, etc. (A time (or place) warp in our campaign might actually might be kinda cool, but otherwise I feel guns/rifles carried by guards should be out.) ( 2 ) That helmut (I remember the discussions) reminded (and still reminds) me of a helmut used in Star Wars. This Star Wars'ian somewhat futuristic look of it is what turned me off from it. It may be old, but whoever designed it had a futuristic mind, apparently EDIT: I was just reading an interview for the upcoming Age of Empires III game. Not sure if this applies to flintlock or not (since I've never heard the term "flintlock" before), but thought I'd post here since we're somewhat talking about guns/rifles:

Cool. While we want it to be as real as possible, at the end of the day, it ISN'T real, you're not really there running around in 3D space with your own feet, grabbing things with your own hands, using your own head to look around, etc. so there will always be a dramatic difference between how the game world works and how real life works. Speak for yourself.

THe reasons you stated there are exactly why the gaming industry is in such a stagnant state these days. Developer's go for the safe option every time and make yet another version of the same generic game type we've seen 100 times before, becasue it's been tried and tested and they're confident it'll sell a few copies. Innovation = risk. We've nothing to risk however, so the argument doesn't work on us. Thief wouldn't even exist if LGS hadn't been an innovative developer who tried to make a new genre. I think we should carry on that tradition, albeit on a smaller scale.

I like the style. Piut it on the FTP so I can see it in the game.

Oi Renza, I have same problem. Cloning does'nt work either. What actually happens is that it will be a revenant in-game (trust me ). Just chuck him in and load it up in D3 - that's what i did and it works just fine .