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Right on, yeah I agree with all that was said. I'll try to get them to be smaller images later tonight or tomorrow, and have the images show up in the post instead of as links. Good idea! Not a problem. [uPDATE: Done.] I agree that the room is bland and I actually, honestly, kind've hate it. It looks better in-person, when standing way far away (LOL) -- actually kind've looks real. BUT (and this is a big BUT) it does lack A LOT of the dynamicism and moodiness we all know and love about Thief. Fortunately, I already realized this and won't be doing another room like that I think I did that room as almost a "study," if you will. I was using Thief 2 as a reference and was seeing how they did the panels on the wall, etc., though I know I erred on a couple things. When i look at that room though, I'm like 'borrrrring' I have a feeling the drawings will get better over time. I'm actually working on a different room scene right now that I think you might appreciate more when I'm done. There's more life and moodiness, in general, to it -- and it feels more Thief to me. I'm using PhotoShop and the coloring will be much better. Once I get a digital pen, I have a feeling you'll be seeing a lot more cooler things, too. Thanks for the feedback guys. Let's rock this thing!

Yeah. I can imagine that the two raving fans of your playstyle will be pretty dissappointed. You know I'm quite selfish. I want as many people, as possible can, enjoy the game in order to get many FM missions back for freem without sacrificing gameplay to the XBox crowd (like T3 did). As there is no body feedback in a game, the player has to get some info on his state. Not everybody is directly connected into his machine with a brain interface. Who said it's impossible? You can play it without it, no problem. What you don't seem to get is, what OPTIONAL means. Nodboy is forcing a lightgem on you, so I don't really know why you bring this up again and again. Weapons are not really needed on the HUD. Doing distinctive models the player can see what he has equipped just by glancing at the screen. Yeah. I know why you are annoyed about this. Because we couldn't make our minds up and now we have 351 icons simoultanously on the screen. I didn't tell you this earlier because I was afraid you wouldn't approve, but after carefully thinking it through I came to the conclusion that we can't do without them. Yeah. That's why we provide the default version. That's what choice is about. And as long as YOU are not forced to use this version, I don't see a problem. It's not as if you need to stick to it. I don't want your playstyle and you don't want mine. You should be able to respect that because it will not interfere anway.

Yep, that would work too, just as long as at least one side of the room faces the outside; to maximize the use of all the windows. I think there should be some stained glass windows thrown in kfmccall's room somewhere, too.

Heh, yeah, I don't normally use crappy speakers for my sound and music needs. I'm getting a new computer soon, and I wont bother to rig my things up again before I get it. I could post the sfx I've made for Thief2D though. Thief2D Music This is a little almost-done music thing for a movie or something. I'll put the sound effects on the FTP once I get a chance.

I still like the simplicity of this blue bar GIMG created a long time ago. I'm referring to the blue portion, not the tips. I like the tips you have better, Springheel. Here was GIMG's creation: For a health bar this should obviously be red, and there shouldn't be any really dark parts on the far right, but I think the center part would work. If any texture is added, then only add a little bit. I don't think it needs a lot. I don't think it needs to be a 3-D model either. EDIT: And in looking at the screenshots there, I admit I prefer the elongated style in T1/T2. *sigh*. Thanks for making the screens, Springheel. Unfortunately, I know Tyrot won't be too happy to hear me say this I think the gem could be squished into more of the style it was in T1/T2 and still have the perfectly circular compass (in perspective) rotating around the gem.

There is no need to hand it over as long as you be in contact with Od, for the model. He can not do everything and he doesn't need to, but he should be the kind of supervisor for all our character models, as he is undoubtedly very skilled at it. It depends on your time though and what Oddity says in the end.

Looks good so far. How long do you think you will take to finish it?

I was under the impression that bows 400 years ago would not last very long anyway. Maybe a few months at most. THey'd be easily cracked or snapped, or just lose their spring. It's not like this is a family heirloom or anything, it's a functional item. I intentionally kept it as simple and rugged a desgn as possible. None of these things have to be the final game version though, but they'll do for now in testing.

Thanks guys! I think it has potential also!! I need to play through Thief 1 and 2 again soon to try and re-capture the feel of some of the aural delights they had. I'm sure you already did this, but while listening to my tracks, close your eyes and try to envision differen't scenes/moods/situations that could be happening. There are a few bits of sounds in there I've noticed, for example, that might work well for machinery -- especially when looped. The piano & strings music sound used in the 'Darkness_Falls-1.mp3' file (about :45 seconds into it) is very similar to the one used in the mansion level of TDS (the level where you could see lightning flashes from inside.) That's the only reason I did that. And, no! Honestly, I've never played Silent Hill. Does it use similar ambience? I watched a friend play a little bit of SH2 on the PlayStation2 many years ago, but I seriously don't remember what the music/ambience was like. I love working with audio, so I'd love to try and help out with the audio portion of things. PS: I've edited my original post to now have the revised URLs. Thanks Renzatic!!!!

Sorry I've been away so long oDDity. You are correct, the weapons you see in first person view are NOT the same models or animations you see when the weapon is lying around. It is a whole new model. Every weapon, including the hands holding it, is a new md5mesh, with individual md5anim files that go with it. Even though we think the arrow is the weapon, the bow is part of the weapon too. The bow only exists in the animation, as an aesthetic thing. You dont' have a "bow" weapon with different "firearrow" "waterarrow" ammo - you have whole new weapons - a "waterarrow" weapon, a "firearrow" weapon, etc. Although since the only thing that might chance between arrow weapons is the colour of the head, you could probably pass new materials to the same mesh and anims in the def file for each arrow weapon - they are doing something SORT OF like this with the existing weapons - different materials can make parts of the mesh disappear, but I think you just discovered that out for yourself. Otherwise, the entire bow, arrow, and hands, are all one mesh, and there is a totaly new one of these meshes for each arrow weapon. But even in this case, since all the arrow weapon models have the same number of joints, the animation files can be re-used. BTW, excuse my suggestion for "weapon animations" in my new "rope" thread in the 3D modeling board. I didn't see this thread until now.

Here's the link for the Thief font: http://desktoppub.about.com/library/fonts/hs/uc_jd.htm According to a post at Ion Storm's forum, this font is for the original Thief games. You maybe all already had it/knew about it? (I know New Horizon already knows about it, but I hadn't seen it before.)

There's nothing inherently wrong with a crossbow. But we decided a long time ago that we're using a bow, we have some of the arrows done, and we are already modeling and animating the bow itself.

I'll pretend I didn't hear that... Only trouble with not making them reusable is that then you have a bunch of ropes hanging around all over the place. Ghosters would at the very least want to be able to pull them out. And if you can pull them out might as well be able to reuse them. I'm fine with oDDity's idea of a thicker, hollow shaft for the arrow. I don't think we need to go into any more detail than that. What about the arrow tip? I like the long, pointy one I put on mine. It's an armour-piercing head, but it looks like something that could imbed quite deeply into a piece of wood.

** Here comes the Science!! ** The problem I have with realistic rope arrow is the added mass of all that rope to the arrow. A heavier arrow, when shot from the same bow, will not fly nearly as far as your basic broadhead. If you don't believe me, here's the physics explanation below: [Physics Explanation - Skip this if you already understand why this is] The bow can only impart so much kinetic energy to the arrow. In the most simple model, think of the bow a system of several springs. The most kinetic energy it can impart to the arrow is equal to the potential energy of the springs when the bow is fully drawn (in reality it will impart a little less, due to friction losses, etc). Okay, so we've got some number in mind for the most kinetic energy the bow can impart to the arrow. Now as some of you may remember from high school physics, the kinetic energy of the arrow is 1/2*mass*veloctiy^2. Set this equal to the max potential energy of the bow when fully drawn. max potential (bow) = 1/2*mass*velocity^2 (arrow). Solve for v: initial velocity = sqrt (2 * max potential / mass ). [1] Since the max potential is always the same for a given bow, you can see that increasing the mass of the arrow decreases the arrow's initial velocity when fired from the bow. [End explanation] Now, think about how long a rope you need to climb up 5 stories (~50 ft / 15 m). How much do you think that rope weighs per unit length? With MODERN polymer materials, I got some numbers from this climbing rope company site: http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/wallropes/ . It weighs 55-77 g / meter. So for a 5 story rope, total modern rope weight = 15 m * {55-77 g/m} = 0.825 - 1.16 kg Now for MODERN broadheads, "Minimum arrow weight was determined to be 25 grams." [ref: http://www.bagjakt.org/study_eng.htm ] So now we have enough information to calculate the fractional decrease in speed when going from a broadhead to "broadhead + rope" Plug everything into [eq 1] : velocity_ropeArrow / velocity_broadhead = sqrt( 0.025 [kg] / (0.025 + rope_mass [kg] ) velocity_ropeArrow / velocity_broad = 0.17 (based on lightest modern rope) velocity_ropeArrow / velocity_broad = 0.14 (based on heaviest modern rope) Conclusion With MODERN materials, adding 5 stories of rope to an arrow will decrease the initial arrow velocity (and therefore how far it can travel) to 14%-17% of a broadhead's initial velocity! This means shooting a rope arrow from a shortbow would be like shooting one of those NERF bow and arrows, compared to the broadhead. There's no chance in hell that you'd be able to shoot that 5 stories up (maybe with the Bow Upgrade ) This analysis didn't even consider the heavier tip you would need to anchor on to things. Also, all the numbers used were for MODERN materials. Polymer ropes, aluminum/graphite epoxy composite arrows, etc. Rope arrows would fly even worse using the technology they had in medieval or even Victorian times. I guess you could make up something about using "spidersilk" rope or some crap like that... but at that point, might as well use magic. Supplemental Info I found this, which might settle some debate: Arrow Flight Simulator program More detailed article on bow physics, including the effects of heavier/lighter arrows (w/ typos because it was translated from Italian?)

The hollowed out shaft with the rope crammed inside it would only require a longer and fatter arrow shaft. THe arrow shaft should also be made of metal, not wood, and the head and shaft should be one piece. Since it's a hollow tube the weight wouldn't be an issue, and the rope arrow isnt required to travel long distances anyway. I don't see how the trident arrow head shape would help it to take more weight, those prongs wouldn't be very strong. I'd say a barbed crossheaded tip would be better.

I know in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter WHAT the helmets look like, as long as they work. But I think it will be easier to swallow if when you look at them you think, "Yeah, that would be kind of hard to blackjack through". Like the multiple layer effect in some of KFM's drawings. Yeah, mechanists are on the list. We can hold off on creating them just yet...if we're going to have mechanists in our campaign we should get some firmer ideas about what they're all about and then design them based around that setting. But I agree helmet #2 would be a good look for them.

I agree, and I wasn't suggesting that look. He would have a normal hood covering the top of his face, but a piece of cloth covering his mouth and nose. I'll be able to post a drawing by the weekend. I also like the idea of having his face always in shadow. Preserve the mystique, definitely.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they just had chain mail around their neck or something, with a skull cap helmet of some sort. I'm definitely down with imitating Thief, but I just remember it took me a long time to figure out why some guards wouldn't go down with a BJ *thwap!* I was hoping we could come up with something a little more visually obvious.

I'm gonna throw in my 2 cents here...it's not quite on topic (I rather like the look of the windows, though they could use some a bit more grunging up), but it could still fall to VD in the end. I'm actually beginning to think that doing a goodly chunk of our windows as models instead of textures would be better in the long run. For buildings off in the distance a texture would suffice, but for windows you'll be slinking by in the darkness it'd draw less resources as a mesh instead of a collection of brushes. Having 5 window models lining a hallway isn't as much of a draw on video memory as 5 large textures would be. I've heard that Doom 3's models work somewhat like UT's static meshes. If you wanted to make a grassy field, having 60 brushes with 60 different grass textures would end up eating alot of video memory, but having one grass model copied 60 times wouldn't be nearly as bad since it's only using the memory from the first grass model and the rest are cloned from it.

Lets start out by assuming that the AI and sound source are separated by at least a few rooms and hallways. So if I understand right, you're saying it's probably okay to use the ray propagation model (1/|r - r_0|^2) for sound propagation to AI over long distances? Trying to model the propagatin of the diffuse field also adds in the complication that sound would be propagating thru several rooms with different reverb characteristics, and if sound is anything like light (that I do know a bit about), there would be geometry-dependent coupling losses going from room to room. Is that coupling loss what you were modeling with the 1 / (const * number of portals) equation? In reality each portal would have a different coupling loss based on geometry right? As for propagating sounds to the player, we don't have that much choice in that matter, other than you guys using soundshaders and stuff. The soundengine that generates sound for players is something we don't have access to in the code. (of course we can do some faking of things by placing new emitters, but that's low priority on my list right now)

As long as gameplay considerations come first. T3 made creeping more realistically quiet, but it sucked from a gameplay perspective because it made things too easy.

The big question is figuring out when to make these sacrifices and why. I'm intending on using a few more brushes than what we saw in Id's maps because Thief is a much slower game and can probably afford a slight framerate drop in comparison. We have this awesome engine at our disposal and all, so of course we should take advantage of it and do things we haven't seen in any Thief game to date....we just gotta use some common sense and think some stuff out. From what I've seen Doom 3 uses about 4000-7000 brushes per map, with usually about 200-400 on display in a single scene (an admittedly pulled-out-of-my-ass estimation) . I plan on using about that same amount of brushes, maybe a little more if the memory requirements aren't too high, and about at most 700 of em onscreen at once. Since the engine can handle that amount you don't have to worry about making any threadbare rooms to save on performance, but to be on the safe side I wouldn't go over that mark. For a quick example here...say you're in a bedroom that's made up of about 150 brushes...you could go ahead and throw a nice transluscent window in there and not worry about choking your graphics card...but if you're in a giant ass entryroom with a grand staircase I'd throw curtains over the windows to keep from drawing what's outside and adding to the burden. lol, kind of a longwinded and sorta preachy post just to say what everyone pretty much already knows, but I wanted to throw it out anyway just to show how I plan on doing the maps.

That's never happened to me after playing Thief, but I did become a more aggressive driver after long bouts of GTA3 -Glee

Would it be more realistic tho to actually apply a long, cyllindrical clip model to it (shouldn't be TOO hard right? if we're already doing it for swords?), then if the AI DO end up hitting the walls a lot, this will be their cue to drop the halberd and whip out the shortsword? [edit - we can also make them choose between attacks, overhead slash, diagonal slash, piercing. If they hit walls with one, switch to the other attack. We're probably going to need to do multiple attacks for swords anyway. Also, someone posted a tutorial for multiple attacks on Doom3world.org http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8291 despite the name, it's not about pressing a button to alternate fire your weapon, it's more about alernative attacks.] Personally I'd be pissed off if an AI hit me with a halberd when we were both in a 2ftx2ft closet ]

There is no extra coding issues with halberds. they can be made to clip through walls to avoide collision problems in small spaces, and they don't have to be made VERY long. We don't have to include trips in the initial release either, that was just an idea.