Lockpicking

[sparhawk]

Why should that be cheating or exploiting a bug? IMO it is the equivalaent of moving very slowly, because on the computer you simply don't have the same control over the body as in RL. Bending around corners and doing that rubberman thing is an exploit, because this is a bug for sure, though.

[The Bozz]

Really? Why is that cheating? It seems to me that for any surface that doesn't actually break (like leaves and twigs), you should be able to move slowly enough that you don't make any sound (that anyone would hear). I generally find myself doing the w w w thing on tile or metal. Otherwise, there's no way to cross those surfaces without making a huge amount of noise. Shouldn't I be able to cross them without making any noise by going really slow (which is what w w w would be)?

You could bind a key so it makes you walk VERY slowly. It's possible in quite a few games to bind a key to make you walk/run at a speed of your choice (the command generally looks like MoveForward X), and I believe that Doom 3 isn't the exception. Right now I don't have the game installed, so I can't check it myself. And it shouldn't be considered a cheat, because you still are walking and you make noise (although quite less), but as you move so slowly you have more trouble to get out of patrol paths or lightspots.

 

However, the w-w-w-w-w... eeeemmm.... "technique"... lets you make no noise at all, at a slightly lower speed than crouch-walking or creeping. Hence it's a cheat.

[obscurus]

Why should that be cheating or exploiting a bug? IMO it is the equivalaent of moving very slowly, because on the computer you simply don't have the same control over the body as in RL. Bending around corners and doing that rubberman thing is an exploit, because this is a bug for sure, though.

 

 

Well, I may be wrong, but there is a general consensus in the thief community that the tap forward bug is not quite kosher (that is why it is generally referred to as the tap forward bug - it wasn't intentional).

 

In RL it is physically impossible to move without making any noise at all, though you can certainly be so quiet that for all intents and purposes you might as well be making no noise, but some surfaces would make it extremely difficult to walk on inaudibly. If it comes to that, the sound of your breathing and your clothes ruffling, leather boots creaking, joints cracking and so on will be amplified by the acoustics of certain types of rooms, so the suggestion that tapping forward is a feature and not a bug ont the principle that it simulates very quiet movement doesn't cut it with me.

 

There should be some surfaces in the game that are stupendously difficult to cross without alerting all AI in earshot - otherwise the challenge just dissapears, and it merely becomes a test of your patience - you could sneak up on just about any guard almost anywhere with no penalty (apart from your time). Some surfaces need to be unavoidably noisy in order to create challenges that require a bit of thought and creativity on the part of the player. The reason moss arrows were included with the original thief was based on the premise that you could not walk across certain surfaces without making noise, but the tap forward bug rendered moss arrows all but a novelty (mind you, I prefer the idea of laying down a cloak on the ground, or using slippers to cross some types of floors, the idea of a moss arrow is a bit silly IMO). It was a shame they didn't fix it for T2...

[sparhawk]

I still don't think it a real bug though. The majro problem in RL moving so slowly would be time. You could move so slowly and carefully that you make no noise, but then you would have to take forever, so it's only practical in very special situations. It wouldn't work for corssing any bigger place though, because in RL the chances of a sudden turn of the guard would be IMO much higher. They are not as predictable as in the game. Maybe it is a bug, because the animation should stop if you release the key before a certain point giving you no advancement at all. But I think it's more a design problem than a real bug.

 

Aren't there some rules which prohibit bug exploitations? How do they consider this particular thing? After all, it's pretty easy to run into this "bug". The rubberman has to be done consciously, but stopping the movement, can simply happen because you want to move and suddenly you notice something and are forced to stop, in which case I would think this shouldn't be considered as an exploit as well. Or is this considered only an exploit if you use it to cross bigger gaps? Don't know which rules that would be, but I guess some of the ghosting would require this, yes?

[Domarius]

Bit of trivia - Thief 2 has a "walk forward slowly" button. This is totally independant from all the other movement speeds. I have it bound to X.

 

So if you hold Crouch, plus Creep, and then press "Walk forward slowly", you move so slow that you move across even metal with absolute silence!! I still am not sure wether they intended this compounding effect or if its actually an exploit.

 

But I agree with the "clok clok" sound the thief makes when he walks as if he's wearing hobnail boots - the point of that is to emulate the difficulty of actually being quiet in real life - in real life you have all sorts of things (mentioned before, clothes rustling etc) but in a video game its better to simplify this into something easily managable, like loud footsteps. So we need something like that there.

 

@Sparhawk - I try every single night to be 100% silent, as I will be doing once again tonight when I arrive home late again, and try my damn hardest not to wake my room mates. I CANNOT be 100% silent, it is pretty much impossible. Clothes for one thing (being naked helps, yeah I speak from experience...), but you just can't stop your feet from making a noise. Even bare skin on the tiles makes a sticky noise, in the dead of the night, these little sounds that you don't notice every day, become as loud as anything. Socks are probably the most quiet, but its hard to imagine the thief would be wearing nothing but cloth on his feet when he expects to be walking over all sorts of terrain, rocks, through sewers, etc.

 

@Obscurus - It's funny you should mention cracking joints Obscurus - I have the most cracky joints of anyone I know. I saw a specialist bone doctor about it, and he checked it all out and told me its normal, I'm just one of the certain percentage of people with noisy joints. And that is why I would never make it as a real theif Every so often, especialy if I have been still for a while, one of my bones, usually one of my ankles, will give such a resounding CRACK, that it the dead of the night it sounds like a firecracker going off...

[bob_arctor]

I chuckled at your post Domarius, same here. Stupid joints.

 

I didn't know it was an exploit particularly, I just found, especially on TII, that even with slowest walking it was not silent, so ended up doing it I think. I have no idea what rubberman is. If anything TAPTAPTAP forwardleanandHit TAPTAPTAP is far worse. So tempting.

 

I see what you are saying about the tiles but it is a game, and some areas have loads of marble, and seeing as Garrett is invisible in shadows I don't think it's too hard to imagine he can be 100% quiet if slow enough. Mind you I will try the Crouch, creep, walk forward thing next time.

 

Calendra's, a popular map series, seemed to have very little loud surfaces. And TII missions with loads of marble are not popular.

[Northeast]

Bit of trivia - Thief 2 has a "walk forward slowly" button. This is totally independant from all the other movement speeds. I have it bound to X.

 

So if you hold Crouch, plus Creep, and then press "Walk forward slowly", you move so slow that you move across even metal with absolute silence!! I still am not sure wether they intended this compounding effect or if its actually an exploit.

 

But I agree with the "clok clok" sound the thief makes when he walks as if he's wearing hobnail boots - the point of that is to emulate the difficulty of actually being quiet in real life - in real life you have all sorts of things (mentioned before, clothes rustling etc) but in a video game its better to simplify this into something easily managable, like loud footsteps. So we need something like that there.

Oh, the clicking heels... When I started playing, I used to think the guards called me a tapper. Oh, the memories...

 

I don't think of that button combination as being an exploit. It takes so much patience to use it all the time. So much...

[sparhawk]

I have no idea what rubberman is.

 

I mean this engine exploit. When you bend forward at a corner, you can start looking sideways, depending on which side the wall is, then you can move along the wall and Garrett becomes much longer then he should be. Another trick is to look through locked doors, which work in a similar way and is also an engine exploit. I think the reason is, because the collision is not done on a vertex basis, as it is possible in D3, which can cause some sideeffects like this.

[SneaksieDave]

Tap creeping is niether bug nor exploit. It is using the mechanics of a largely open and well designed game system. In a game where movement is so important, the least we should be able to do is define/control that movement speed. And we are given what? Run, or walk. Later, a slower walk. Well, I choose to have an even slower(!) walk. One so slow that it is the equivalent of stopping, balancing, then heel-to-toe next foot placement, and so on, or even foot shuffling. I can certainly do it VERY quietly in 'real life' (ignoring the joint cracking ) and I'm not even a master thief.

 

As for forward lean blackjacking - it's so glaring and obvious - why would they have left it in if it wasn't intended? That's like, "it's an exploit to jump to a ladder instead of climbing it from the bottom - it allows you to get to the top faster, or even use it to get to places you shouldn't be able to - they left that bug in by accident." Nonsense. It's using emergent design dynamically. Or better, "you're not supposed to strafe and move forward at the same time - that makes diagonal movement possible - that's an exploit." What? What's so bad about moving at a rate of 1 foot per second (or less) if it's useful to the situation, and I can time it correctly? Or leaning forward before swinging my arm? I can sure do it, again in 'real life.' Unless this 'master thief' has serious hearing, balance, or locomotive problems, these are not difficult tasks.

[sparhawk]

Which leaves the question why they needed a sidestep in TDS instead of a proper leaning? I'm not the most bendy man, and I'm not an artist either but even I can easily bend around a corner without my feet moving. Considering that this is a lean and well trained Thief he can't do this simple movement? The reason is pretty simple. It looks "kewl" and it is easier to program. No need to adjust the collision box or anything. A sidestep is MUCH easier to implement than proper bending, which involves all kind of really complex and advanced math, like turning the view at the appropriate angle and adjusting the collision box.

[SneaksieDave]

Yeah, the sidestep lean in TDS goes down in my book as one of the stupidest, "trying to look kewl in third person" decisions. It takes one of the most innovative, useful things in the Thief series, and reduces it to useless and annoying, even.

[bob_arctor]

Well standing in the shadows, invisible, forward learning, then hitting people in the face(!) then knocking them out is wrong. And then having more and more people come after you, not seeing you, stepping over their friends, into your blackjack ("OW MY NOSE? I AM UNCONSCIOUS NOW FOR SOME REASON") is crap.

Complete rubbish. Should not be in the game. Dunno why TII had it still.

 

Rubbermanning seems okay, not much real use, kangaroo jumping seems worse. I like the way you can lean too much then fall over in Tclassics. "whoooa!" Garrett says, as he loses his balance.

 

Or "boingy boingy jump over the marble! Wheeee!".

 

But could you not include exploits at all please? Just include things that work, like working lean, and we won't complain.

[sparhawk]

Exploits are exploits because there is some flaw in the game. If it were designed and coded in that way then it would NOT be an exploit by defintion. So if we add an exploit it is certainly not because we wanted it that way, but rather either because we overlooked it, or because it is inherent in the way the algorithm works. I can tell you one exploit of the darkmod that could be achieved but there is no way around that because of the way it is implemented.

With the new lightgem method it would be possible to make a rearmirror out of it and have it displayed in the gamescreen. Of course you will have to change a few things in the code to allow for this, but the change is pretty trivial if you know where to do it (just one line of code). As a matter of fact this is very usefull, because since I accidently noticed it, I use it to debug the lightgem with this. But I wont tell you much more about it, because it certainly is not intended to be used that way. Unfortunately there is no way around this until we get the full sourcecode of Doom 3.

[Maximius]

@Sparhawk - I try every single night to be 100% silent, as I will be doing once again tonight when I arrive home late again, and try my damn hardest not to wake my room mates. I CANNOT be 100% silent, it is pretty much impossible. Clothes for one thing (being naked helps, yeah I speak from experience...), but you just can't stop your feet from making a noise. Even bare skin on the tiles makes a sticky noise, in the dead of the night, these little sounds that you don't notice every day, become as loud as anything. Socks are probably the most quiet, but its hard to imagine the thief would be wearing nothing but cloth on his feet when he expects to be walking over all sorts of terrain, rocks, through sewers, etc.

 

I floated the idea of the Thief using a sort of over-sock for walking silently across noisy floors. he would slip them on before and then carefully tip toe across. The benefits: 1. no moss arrows, I dont mind using magical items but it always bugged me that the AI would be alerted by a doused torch but a brand new carpet of magical moss in the front foyer never raised an eyebrow, and 2. the socks are infinitely reuseable.

 

But they are not something the Thief would want to wear all the time, because they only let him move just so fast without slipping and falling and he sure as hell cannot scamper up a rope or mantle up onto a wall with them on. So they have limitations as well, as any good tool in a game should have.

 

Domarious, you seem to know much about the mechanics of t2, what in the hell was the "slide" button for? I could never get it to do anything at all in the game, I tried it alone and in combination but it never did anything for me.

[Domarius]

Um, off the top of my head all I can think of is that you might be referring to the strafe modifier? An old feature from back in the classic Doom days where the left and right arrow keys turned you around on the spot, and you held the strafe modifier to make the left and right keys "slide" you sideways left and right (the way A and D keys do by default nowadays)

[Maximius]

Um, off the top of my head all I can think of is that you might be referring to the strafe modifier? An old feature from back in the classic Doom days where the left and right arrow keys turned you around on the spot, and you held the strafe modifier to make the left and right keys "slide" you sideways left and right (the way A and D keys do by default nowadays)

 

 

no, its not strafing, in my key bindings there was a key for sliding, or something like that, i think it was bound to the ALT key in the original installation. If i remember correctly, A and D could be bound for strafing independently, i certainly never played with them bound for turning.

[Domarius]

Yes but there is always a key in addition to strafe left/right - its a modifier, you hold it and your turn left/right keys change into strafe left/right. And it's commonly the ALT key (back in the day).

 

I would fire up T2 right now but I'm getting a rather worrying error from it "You have 30mb of disk space left. Thief 2 requires 35mb. Therefore Theif will not run." I have 4 gig free on that drive. But my computer turns wierd after being on the net too long.

[sparhawk]

In the original Doom there was no seperate key for strafing in a given direction. You used the Left/Right keys and when you wanted to strafe, then you pressed the strafe modifier, which was ALT most of the time, and also used the Left/Right keys. This was the normal method for quite some time, but later on, when the mouse was used for movement, there was no need for this anymore. Instead the games started to use seperate Left/Right strafing keys instead of just a modifier. Actually it took my quite some time to get used to. As a consequence of this, most games still support both methods. To have a strafe modifier, or independent strafe keys.

[Maximius]

That makes sense Domarius/sparhawk. Remember the Doom I expansion pack, with the kooky fan missions and all that stuff? My roomate and I had two 486s networked with a phone cord, we would start playing Saturday night around 11 P.M. and not stop until 7 a.m. the next day.

[obscurus]

I would fire up T2 right now but I'm getting a rather worrying error from it "You have 30mb of disk space left. Thief 2 requires 35mb. Therefore Theif will not run." I have 4 gig free on that drive. But my computer turns wierd after being on the net too long.

 

 

There is a bug in the Thief game engine that causes it to misread the amount of available hard drive space used for virtual memory. What you can do is try deleting some files on the HD where you have installed thief, or alternatively, adding files (about 40Mb worth) - this will make the game engine think you have sufficient space (I have used this method, it works - I had the same problem on a drive that had 65Gb of free space)...

 

this bug exists because the game was made at a time when hard drives were quite small, and they obviously never conceived of 100Gb plus HDDs at the time and so hard coded a sloppy way of reading hard drive free space.

 

There is more info available somewhere on the TTLG forums, don't have an exact link at the moment...

[bob_arctor]

thief The Circle then Information then Troubleshooting FAQ. Somewhere there.

[heXen]

Funny I clearly remember playing DooM 1 and putting strafe on A D, and look up-down on W S. It's much more simple. Why on Earth press a different button? What if you want to go right and turn at the same time? I remember playing cyclones, but there was no possibility to change keys, I dropped it at once...

[sparhawk]

I don't remember the details but I was under the impression that there were no seperate keys. I just checked my installation but this is not the original Doom, only the "Collecters Edition" which is built to run on Windows. So I don't know right now where the config file is which contains the keybindings.

Might be that you are right.

[heXen]

Hmmm... Download DooM1 demo, go in dosbox, and load the magical file setup.exe... Or maybe just to go setup.exe without dosbox.

 

Why on earth would someone buy doom collectors edition? It has new levels, ideas, graphics?

 

Here, a screen of heretic setup - doom is the same, and on the screen I set strafe to A and D

 

[sparhawk]

I think it is my decision what I buy and what not. And to the why. Simply because I wanted to play Doom without the hassle of a DOS box and all it's associated nasties.