Starforce

[Al3xand3r]

Bullets:

1) True - But many other games require an internet connection to run properly.

2) You transfer the specific game's cd key to another account afaik so it's possible to only separate a single game from your account. I also dislike the fee but hey, I'm glad I don't have to pay for any of the bandwidth required to run Steam and all the auto updates and what not, that's a minor thing.

3) I'm not sure what your point is here. Don't you have to reinstall any game after a reinstall of windows? How is Steam/HL2 different?

4) You don't have to disconnect from the internet to turn auto updates off. Right click your game in the list, click properties, go to the updates tab, and select "do not automatically update this game". As simple as that. From the Steam settings tab you can also turn off the news pop ups. Steam will still log on but it won't check for updates or get news pop ups so you can freely download whatever else you want while playing HL2 or anything else you want.

5) It's most likely a case of not being able to sell it much lower than the boxed version as it would sort of be considered bad competition with the publisher who they still need to get proper deals with like any other developer.

6) So which legal user you know of got his account banned?

7) Not sure what your point is

 

Not bullets:

1) Other developers have supported their games AFTER going bankrupt (Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines got a patch for example), I think Valve would do similar. You don't and that's fine but as I mentioned before, many other games will in theory shut down if/after the company goes bankrupt. If they are multiplayer or not doesn't matter because you still paid for them with the same kind of money. By the way, those precious CDs you hold on to so dearly, they don't have unlimited lifetime and will eventually stop working... Hope you've got a back up for every single game you own. With Steam you'll just need to download it when/if the CD stops working. And Valve still supports HL1 on Steam, an 8 year old game.

 

2) Sure, I never denied that.

 

3) How is Valve only talking about it? They often mention modifications in Steam news giving them a LOT of publicity, they often provide tech support in various mailing lists, they created the developer community which is a great resource, they even created the installer for Minerva, a great episodic single player modification. They've even had mod teams go to their offices for playtests and provide them with advice about their game. They set up public matches "Valve vs the Mod Devs" with HL2 CTF to help boost its popularity. They do a lot more than just talk about it.

 

4) I already acknowledged money is involved, but I like the way Valve makes them better than the way EA makes them for example.

 

5) What the heck do you mean integrated to the publisher? Other games have properly licenced the Source engine and haven't used Steam for it, like Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. And Valve gives the chance to an amateur group to actually get a retail title/add on/whatever under their belts without purchasing a licence or anything at all. Sure it will only be allowed to be sold on Steam, and sure Valve will take a % of the profits, so what? When did a developer give the engine for FREE and let the third party publish a game without having any other involvement at all themselves? Because I don't think any developer did what Valve does at all, in order for you to act like it's a bad thing they didn't do even more.

Garage Games is also a HUGE indie dev supporter but they are the publisher for most games created with their engines and support etc, does that make them evil (hell, devs even have to buy the engine in their case)? Because those games wouldn't be likely to get published at all if it wasn't for them. In fact it works in a similar way to Steam, they sell them on the GG site which is very popular and known that it provides games, giving them a lot more publicity than if it was the dev team just putting it on their own unknown site and telling people to buy it off there. Which is why they do deals with GG.

 

6) Black Cat Games rock. Alien Swarm is still a free mod for UT2004 and is still supported with upcoming patches. Alien Swarm: Infested is the Half-Life 2 project which will have a free version and a pay version with extras. The team is still working on other modifications namely Nightblade for UT2004. They still even provide support with an upcoming patch for an ancient UT modification they made. Just giving more info because you seem to start hating on things that you don't have enough information for.

[sparhawk]

Bullets:

1) True - But many other games require an internet connection to run properly.

 

That doesn't make it any better. So far I know only one game that requires an internet account to verify it's key, which is Quake 4. I'm not aware of other games which are SINGLEPLAYER and still require an internet connection.

 

2) You transfer the specific game's cd key to another account afaik so it's possible to only separate a single game from your account. I also dislike the fee but hey, I'm glad I don't have to pay for any of the bandwidth required to run Steam and all the auto updates and what not, that's a minor thing.

 

Why should you pay for it in the first place? I mean, it's not as if I said that I want to have Steam. It is an advatnage for Valve, so Valve should pay for it. It's not that I have to be glad that this doesn't have a fee, it's quite the other way around. If you buy a bread at the bakers store, are you also glad that you don't have to pay for the bakers electricity bill just because it happened to have the light switched on when you bought that bread?

 

3) I'm not sure what your point is here. Don't you have to reinstall any game after a reinstall of windows? How is Steam/HL2 different?

 

Nope. In fact I have most games since several years on my system without reinstalling them. But this gets quite annoying with other games as well, because Doom 3 also required me to reinstall after I reinstalled Windows. There is no technical need to enforce this, so this is a bad thing. Why should a game be dependent on the windows system? All files are in the installation directory, so it should not matter wether the system was replaced or not. This is simply bad design practice to force the user to reinstall.

 

5) It's most likely a case of not being able to sell it much lower than the boxed version as it would sort of be considered bad competition with the publisher who they still need to get proper deals with like any other developer.

 

So you conceed that the "it will allow cheaper games" is a lame excuse to sell it to naive customers?

 

6) So which legal user you know of got his account banned?

 

You mean it is only a valid concern if I know such users personally? Why bother reading the news it's only true if I know it firsthand.

 

7) Not sure what your point is

 

The point is, if there is a game which doesn't generate enough income, Valve can decide to switch it off. In such a case you are screwed even though you payed the full price. I can replay all my games as often as I like to, because I have the CD and can install it anytime I want.

 

Not bullets:

1) Other developers have supported their games AFTER going bankrupt (Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines got a patch for example), I think Valve would do similar.

 

You are confusing individual developers with a company. I can assuer you that Valve will most likely NOT do such a thing, because if they are gouing bankrupt, they will have a lot of other things to worry abouit then just a few pissed of fanboys.

 

You don't and that's fine but as I mentioned before, many other games will in theory shut down if/after the company goes bankrupt.

 

Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can not play these games anymore. LGS died long ago, but I can still play Thief on my machine.

 

If they are multiplayer or not doesn't matter because you still paid for them with the same kind of money.

 

Most games are NOT multiplayer, you are intentionally smearing multiplayer and singleplayer games into one assumed argument to make it look as if the argument applies. It doesn't, because singleplayer games are SINGLE PLAYER games. They don't need an internetconnection by definition.

 

By the way, those precious CDs you hold on to so dearly, they don't have unlimited lifetime and will eventually stop working... Hope you've got a back up for every single game you own.

 

Yes. And actually, applying a NoCD crack also helps a lot, because I install the game once, and then put it back in the cover.

 

With Steam you'll just need to download it when/if the CD stops working. And Valve still supports HL1 on Steam, an 8 year old game.

 

And did you even think about why? Because HL still generates revenue. How many other games of Valve do you know which are still supported? From looking at google it seems there is not even another game, yo sour assumptions are quite unfounded and mere hope.

 

2) Sure, I never denied that.

 

What?

 

3) How is Valve only talking about it? They often mention modifications in Steam news giving them a LOT of publicity, they often provide tech support in various mailing lists, they created the developer community which is a great resource, they even created the installer for Minerva, a great episodic single player modification. They've even had mod teams go to their offices for playtests and provide them with advice about their game. They set up public matches "Valve vs the Mod Devs" with HL2 CTF to help boost its popularity. They do a lot more than just talk about it.

 

You seem to miss the point even though you mentioned the most important fact in the same sentence.

 

They set up public matches "Valve vs the Mod Devs" with HL2 CTF to help boost its popularity.

 

That's the keypoint here. They are NOT doing it for the benefit of the community, they are doing it for the benefit of Valve. That's ok, after all Valve is a company, but you shouldn't sell this as if it were out of the good heart of Valve, because it isn't. If they would really care for the community, as you claim, they could for example release the sourcecode to HL1. You know why I like Id? because of that. Releasing the sourcecode to an engine that is no longer generating revenue is an act that doesn't really help them much. They wouldn't need to do this, but Carmack repsects the community so it is giving back something. Now show me what Valve did that shows an exquall respect for it's fans, and which is not included in a marketing plan.

 

5) What the heck do you mean integrated to the publisher? Other games have properly licenced the Source engine and haven't used Steam for it, like Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines.

 

They had to licence it. We are talking about HL2 here which is integrated with Steam.

 

When did a developer give the engine for FREE and let the third party publish a game without having any other involvement at all themselves?

 

Enemy Territory comes immediately to mind. Including source code.

 

Garage Games is also a HUGE indie dev supporter but they are the publisher for most games created with their engines and support etc, does that make them evil (hell, devs even have to buy the engine in their case)? Because those games wouldn't be likely to get published at all if it wasn't for them. In fact it works in a similar way to Steam, they sell them on the GG site which is very popular and known that it provides games, giving them a lot more publicity than if it was the dev team just putting it on their own unknown site and telling people to buy it off there. Which is why they do deals with GG.

 

Garage Games is an excellent example. I purchased one game from them and it suffers exactly the problems that I mentioned. This pisses me off so much that one day I will probably crack it just get rid of this annyoing key validation everytime I have to reinstall Windows. On the other hand I payed much less for this game so it's a bit different. If I pay full price for a high profile game, I expect a little bit more than that.

 

Just giving more info because you seem to start hating on things that you don't have enough information for.

 

Where did you get that from? I don't care for BlackCat Games because I don't care for the game itself. I'm not hating them I'm just indifferent to them, which is quite a difference, but then we were never talking about BlackCat Games or others so I don't know why you think this has to be dragged in here.

[Al3xand3r]

1) Whether the game is SP or MP makes no difference, it's still money. You are OK with losing money if a game is MP but you are not ok with it just because it's an SP game? And it's still only a GUESS from you that in the case Steam stops being supported there will be no patch or whatever else created that will let you play it anyway. Even if Valve doesn't do it, I'm sure the community will be able to, if anyone still cares.

 

2) Already said I disagree with the fee. But by the way, you do pay for the baker's electricity, do you think he sets the amount of money he charges without taking in account the expenses of his store?

 

3) Well, that's only a fetish you seem to have, why should a developer cater to your pointless need of keeping the game files like that and what does Steam have to do with it since you mentioned another game (which will definitely not be the only one) that requires the same thing without including Steam? Off topic.

 

4) Nope, I have no idea how much HL2 would cost if it wasn't for Steam, what makes you think the intended price wasn't reduced at all? Sure it was expensive but it may have been more so without it. You have no clue and I don't either so I won't argue about it, you can feel free to keep making vague guesses if it pleases you though.

 

5) Well, don't believe everything you read. The only CD Key related problem I know for fact is that Sierra published copies had duplicate CD keys but were solved by Sierra's own technical support afaik.

 

6) That's only guessing on your part again with that point.

 

7) So because Valve have made no other games it means that they will drop support and have people unable to play it? Guessing once again.

 

8) I provided information about how Valve actively helps the mod community, I don't see what else you think they should do other than provide all that support.

 

9) How is the HL2 CTF vs Valve match NOT benefitting the community? HL2 CTF is a good but almost dead modification. They desperately needed publicity in case it helped them get a fanbase and so they asked Valve to have a match with them (twice actually). Valve accepted and you still say they did it for themselves? How do they do it for themselves by supporting a mod that isn't likely to get a fanbase at all however good it is?

 

10) I still don't get your point. A third party should be able to use the Source engine without licencing it and without Steam? Just take the engine and publish a game with it and have Valve sit and watch them? What are you on about?

 

11) How is ET an example of someone giving you the engine for free and letting you publish a game with it? What Enemy Territory based modification/game/whatever did you see go stand-alone and be SOLD on stores? That's a totally off topic example you tried to give.

 

12) Ok Garage Games is also the devil and all those indie devs that make a living through them are being stupid!

 

13) You talked about the dislike for people that end up selling their mods after a point I made, I explained the situation with Black Cat Games which was where my point you gave that response to came from.

 

14) At one point during your post you mention how HL still generates revenue. Then you go on to say Valve is not as nice as ID because they don't give the HL1 source code while ID gave the source code for a game that didn't generate revenue anymore. Sort of contradicting isn't it? How do you know that when/if HL stops generating revenue Valve won't give the source code? And why should they give the source code while it is still generating revenue? ID didn't do that according to what you say.

 

Seems to me you just want to dislike Steam/Valve no matter what. We were talking about the Steam platform and throughout these posts I've had to say what sort of support Valve gives to mod developers, what third party publishers have to do to get an engine, and all sorts of unrelated things... Wtf?

[sparhawk]

1) Whether the game is SP or MP makes no difference, it's still money. You are OK with losing money if a game is MP but you are not ok with it just because it's an SP game?

 

I already payed the game so where exactly do you loose money on a SP?

 

2) Already said I disagree with the fee. But by the way, you do pay for the baker's electricity, do you think he sets the amount of money he charges without taking in account the expenses of his store?

 

And how often do you intend to pay it? So you go to one store where the bread costs 1 USD. You go to the next door where the bread costs exactly the same. But when you leave the shop, suddenly the shopkeeper comes and says "Hey! You didn't pay for the electric light that was on, while you were in my shop. And you also didn't pay for the guy who served you. And ..."

HL2 costs exactly as much as any other game and even more. So you already payed the bill.

 

3) Well, that's only a fetish you seem to have, why should a developer cater to your pointless need of keeping the game files like that and what does Steam have to do with it since you mentioned another game (which will definitely not be the only one) that requires the same thing without including Steam? Off topic.

 

You registered in a forum where the main focus is a game that is already eight years old, so it seems not to be only my fetish.

 

4) Nope, I have no idea how much HL2 would cost if it wasn't for Steam, what makes you think the intended price wasn't reduced at all?

 

That's pretty easy to answer. HL2 would cost exactly as much as all the opther games would. Why? Because there is a limit how much people are willing to pay, and a company can not feed just on fanboys. Wait! HL2 already costs just as much as any other game nevertheless, so the big improvement of Steam is, well steam. Hot air from the marketing. A fitting name at least.

 

Sure it was expensive but it may have been more so without it. You have no clue and I don't either so I won't argue about it, you can feel free to keep making vague guesses if it pleases you though.

 

It's called an educated guess, because we have some experience on games. It's not as if this HL2 was the very fist game ever released, so that we don't have a comparison. You can easily track how much games costs by going to a store near you. If you think it is coincidence that all high-profile game are in the same range, then you should think again. Production costs are NOT an criterion for the end-user price, because games cost the same since many years already, while the development costs increased.

 

7) So because Valve have made no other games it means that they will drop support and have people unable to play it? Guessing once again.

 

It's much more guessing on your part, because you can easily see that other game companies drop support for old games. HL1 is an exception because it still createsd revenues, so it pays off to support it. Try to find support for a game that is eight years old. You wont find it, unless it is so popular that it is still in demand.

 

8) I provided information about how Valve actively helps the mod community, I don't see what else you think they should do other than provide all that support.

 

I don't say that they should do more, I only said that you shouldn't sell this support as if it were out of the good heart of Valve. They are NOT doing this, because they love you so much that they say "Hey! This is such a nice guy, we have to give him some support for free."

 

How do they do it for themselves by supporting a mod that isn't likely to get a fanbase at all however good it is?

 

Did Valve know that HL1 will generate Counterstrike and that this mod will make their success? I doubt it. I guess they changed attitude towards modders a bit, because they realized the marketing vcalue behind it.

 

11) How is ET an example of someone giving you the engine for free and letting you publish a game with it?

 

Let's see. The company gives away the source code. And it gives it away for free. Hmmm... .what does this mean in the context of a question where you asked which other company, except Valve, did give away their engine for free. ET is ONE example of that, and there are others. Id even does this on a regular basis.

 

What Enemy Territory based modification/game/whatever did you see go stand-alone and be SOLD on stores? That's a totally off topic example you tried to give.

 

It doesn't matter wether a mod is actually slold, because it was put under GPL and therfore it CAN be sold. if I take the ET codebase and create my own game with it I could sell it. Simple as that. And the engine is for free, including the sourcecode.

 

12) Ok Garage Games is also the devil and all those indie devs that make a living through them are being stupid!

 

No. But Garagegames is an excellent example, in a smaller way, that uses the same mechanics as Steam, and I already got experience with it, and saw in first-hand experience how much it sucks, with all the limitations that it gives me. I knew that this limitations existed because Steam is designed to provide limtiations to users, but considering Garage Games and it's technology, it's not only speculation anymore. I still would rather buy at Garage Games then at Valve though. Simply because GG does what Valve promises. They give the games away for less, so I still have the benefit that Valve claimed but doesn't provide.

 

14) At one point during your post you mention how HL still generates revenue. Then you go on to say Valve is not as nice as ID because they don't give the HL1 source code while ID gave the source code for a game that didn't generate revenue anymore.

 

If Id were like other companies they could have kept the code. There was no requirement to make the code available. You know why they did it? Because Carmack learned a lot from Open Source and he actively supports it, by giving something to the community. Even though the engine doesn't create any revenues anymore, it is still a very big gift to release the engine for free where others had to pay half a million USD for it. The principle behind is that Carmack says, rather then let the code rot on some shelf, I give it to people who can do something creative with it. Look at Eidos for example. They can't do anything with the Thief code because it is way to outdated (I'm talking of Thief 1 and 2 not TDS). The fans would appreciate it a lot, you can believe this. It wouldn't even hurt the sales, because people would still buy the full game, as they do now. But Eidos doesn't release it. Id did. That's the difference.

 

How do you know that when/if HL stops generating revenue Valve won't give the source code?

 

LOL! As soon as Valve releases the code, you can send me your account data and I will send you 50USD as a acknowledgement how nice Valve is. I guess you will have to wait a VERY long time for it, though because I'm 100% positive that Valve will never do this.

 

Seems to me you just want to dislike Steam/Valve no matter what. We were talking about the Steam platform and throughout these posts I've had to say what sort of support Valve gives to mod developers, what third party publishers have to do to get an engine, and all sorts of unrelated things... Wtf?

 

I know that enough people like it, otherwise Valve wouldn't get rich from it. Of course there is always the big base of fanboys and unconsidering people, who will support anything as long as it is flashy and marketed well. That's how politicians get their votes. because they know that most people will not give a second though as long as they have games and nice toys to play with. Like little kids. Keep them smiling and happy, and you can do whatever you want, until they are so locked up, that they can not do anything against it anymore.

[Al3xand3r]

1) I was talking on the case that support is dropped so Steam/HL2 no longer works. Why do I have to repeat how the dicussion of the specific point first started every time you feel like "forgetting" it when you reply? You said I put MP and SP games in the same pot when they are different. I tell you to the end user it's still money for entertainment so it's fine for me to put them in the same pot in this aspect. Therefor, Steam is not the first game that won't work IF the developer goes bankrupt, many multiplayer games would get the same, so it's not just a side effect of Steam.

 

2) Once. I've had the game since release and I haven't had to pay anything more.

 

3) I wasn't talking about the fetish of playing old games. I was talking about the fetish of keeping the files intact and not reinstalling the games. Off topic and again you "forget" what you are actually replying to.

 

4) It's still a guess.

 

5) I didn't make any guess. But, you just acknowledged it's common practice for companies, why should Valve be different and hated for not being so?

 

6) Because they can make an educated guess and see that the particular mod will never get off the ground in such a way.

 

7) Ok I was unaware of that. But, again, very few companies do that, and even so, that engine was extremely outdated by that time already and the specific game again did not generate any revenue.

 

8) No, Carmack did it because he knew he wouldn't lose money in any way and that all the fanboys would love it. In this way, ID can keep releasing mediocre games like Doom 3 since all the fanboys will buy them anyway just because apparently Carmack is a Saint who gives stuff away for free so he should be supported by them regardless of his games' quality.

Also, where's ID's support to the Doom 3 modding community? If they are so great in that aspect that Valve "only talks about" why did the Doom 3 modding community die so soon, why is The Dark Mod one of the less than a handful of promising projects out there for Doom 3 that are still actively being developed?

 

9) Ok

 

10) Not a reply to what I said, just a statement, so you didn't have to quote.

[Domarius]

Why do I have to repeat how the dicussion of the specific point first started every time you feel like "forgetting" it when you reply?

Haha, you noticed this too? You're hardly the first.

[sparhawk]

8) No, Carmack did it because he knew he wouldn't lose money in any way and that all the fanboys would love it. In this way, ID can keep releasing mediocre games like Doom 3 since all the fanboys will buy them anyway just because apparently Carmack is a Saint who gives stuff away for free so he should be supported by them regardless of his games' quality.

 

It seems you are confusing the direction. Caramck already had a very good standing with his games. Wolfenstein and Doom or Comander Keen, were very well received. there was no incentive to give away the code AS WELL, because he didn't have to do it, and I don't know of any other company doing it. Caramck didn't start with Doom 3, you know?

 

Also, where's ID's support to the Doom 3 modding community?

 

You are right. The support in that regard could be better. But then again, getting the sourcode compensates a lot, because if I have the code, I can look at it and see exactly how it is done. We are in contact with developers of Id and even he doesn't know everything, so having the sourcecode is much more prefereable then anything else.

 

If they are so great in that aspect that Valve "only talks about" why did the Doom 3 modding community die so soon, why is The Dark Mod one of the less than a handful of promising projects out there for Doom 3 that are still actively being developed?

 

One reason is certainly the fanyboydom of HL2. Marketingwise alve did a very good job. Also it is not an easy task to create a total conversion mod, so it is only natural to expect that mods die down after some time. Another point is probably, that HL2 gameplay was much better. I talked to some mod developer and most of them switched from D3 to HL2 because they didn't consider the engine, instead they talked about how cool the HL2 game was. In some cases this might be valid, but in general this is simply a stupid idea, because you should judge an engine on it's technical aspects and how they relate to the requirements of your mod. If we had judged the engine based on the game we wouldn't have taken D3 because the game was simply boring (at least for me) and before we started many people complained and said that D3 can not do large maps, because they saw only small maps in the game. And some even said that the D3 engine is not suitable for creating a Thief atmosphere. So there are all kind of reasons why the HL2 community is bigger, but personally I think it mainly dependet on the marketing and the hype that was created even before the game was released.

 

As to my "forgetting". Guess why quoting exists. If you simply write some unrelated comment without quoting, I'm not going back and forth all the time just to check what you really meant.

[Al3xand3r]

1)You don't get what I'm saying. I didn't mean Carmack gives the source code on release day to make them sell more. I meant Carmack gives the sourcecode, whenever he does, just to please the fan boys and have them buy his FUTURE games just because he's such a Saint. You did agree Doom 3 was boring after all... Just showing how this "every nice thing Valve does is purely based on profit" can work just the same for ID if someone really wants to say it.

 

In the case of Doom 3 modding, you prefer getting the source code some 5 years from now when the game is 100% dead rather than get better developing support from the start? You might as well stop working on The Dark Mod then and get back to it when the D3 source is available, if ever. Unless I missed something and it's already released?

 

2) Well, your quote tags were annoying since they didn't work, I didn't want to do the same. I guess you just typed them wrong though since they work on your last post.

[sparhawk]

1)You don't get what I'm saying. I didn't mean Carmack gives the source code on release day to make them sell more. I meant Carmack gives the sourcecode, whenever he does, just to please the fan boys and have them buy his FUTURE games just because he's such a Saint. You did agree Doom 3 was boring after all... Just showing how this "every nice thing Valve does is purely based on profit" can work just the same for ID if someone really wants to say it.

 

I got what you said. Of course it's obvious that they will not give away their code on the day of release. This would be pretty pointless from the commercial point of view. What you don't get though is, that gamecompanies have to provide some support for their own benefit, but they don't have to give the code away as well. Id also provides some support, even though it is not as big as maybe from Valve. On the other hand, the engine design is done in a way that doesn't require so much support. All maps in Doom are in plain text, so aynbody can go and check how the devs did something if they want/need to. Additionaly the SDK is the full implementation of the Doom 3 gameplay, which is released as sourcode as well. Again this means, that you don't need to get as much support directly from Id, because you can actually look at their code and see how they did something. For example. Phyiscs is fully implemented in the SDK code. This means that I could remove it and replace it, with Havoc or any other physics engine. You shoudl take this into account when you say that Id doesn't provide as much support to the modding community, because there is not so much support required in the first place. Of course it feels nice if you can contact the devs and directly ask them, but in the end, having the source code available is a much bigger benefit. So your statement is not completely true, because Id already gave away the full sourcecode for their game. What they did NOT do is to give away the code from the engine as well, but Carmack already announced that this will happen soon. (Soon is relative so don't expect it in the next few months). I did not check the SDK for HL2, but does it also include the full gameplay? I don't think so, but maybe you can answer this. And also maps are locked to modders IMO, so they can also not just take a look at the existing maps to see how something works. This means they are tied to the support, while Doom 3 gives you much more independence. Heck, we even implemented stuff where the devs themself said it will not be possible (the lightgem for example).

 

In the case of Doom 3 modding, you prefer getting the source code some 5 years from now when the game is 100% dead rather than get better developing support from the start?

 

How much support is 100%? What exactly does the SDK environment from HL2 include? And as I said above, we already got the full sourcode of the Doom 3 game and this was released about 2 or 3 months after the game was released.

 

You might as well stop working on The Dark Mod then and get back to it when the D3 source is available, if ever. Unless I missed something and it's already released?

 

Apparently you miss something here. The very fact that The Dark Mod exists and grows already prooves you wrong. If we had to wait for the core engine to be released, you were right, but this is not the case. Of course it would be cool to have the engine as well already at this time, because it would make live easier in some cases, but in most cases it is not required. We already implemented about 3/5th of the major parts required for gameplay, and the remaining parts can be done as well, because we already know how to do them in a general way, and we also know that they will be possible, so it is mostly time that is lacking, and of course there are a lot of moderate systems that also have to be implemented, which also will take time. With major parts I mean the stuff that is really hard to do and requires more expertise to code, which includes the lightgem, the soundpropagation, the AI searching algorithm and the fighting modes. Apart from that we have to do all the minor stuff like inventory, objectives and so on, which is straightforward but simply takes time.

 

2) Well, your quote tags were annoying since they didn't work, I didn't want to do the same. I guess you just typed them wrong though since they work on your last post.

 

I checked them several times and they were ok. I think the forum system has a problem with large postings, because I only noticed this on your long posts. Could also be that the forum screws up with the brackets on your numbering, I don't know. Since I don't type the quotes and instead paste them in, I can not realy misstype them.

 

Edit: You see it works in this posting, so I assume it has to do with the length of the posting.

 

I just checked it, and it is indeed the length. When I copy the same text once, it still works, but copying it a second time in (making the posting three times as big as it is now), the quote stops working.

[sxotty]

8) No, Carmack did it because he knew he wouldn't lose money in any way and that all the fanboys would love it. In this way, ID can keep releasing mediocre games like Doom 3 since all the fanboys will buy them anyway just because apparently Carmack is a Saint who gives stuff away for free so he should be supported by them regardless of his games' quality.

Also, where's ID's support to the Doom 3 modding community? If they are so great in that aspect that Valve "only talks about" why did the Doom 3 modding community die so soon, why is The Dark Mod one of the less than a handful of promising projects out there for Doom 3 that are still actively being developed?

You see this is where you are wrong

 

HL2 was a mediocore game in many people's opinions as well. The only thing it has going for it is a mod that Valve did not create in the first place.

 

Giving away the source is not giving away the assets. You cannot download the source code and play the game, you still need all the art assets so you have to buy it. Valve could release the source to HL1 and you would not be ble to play it without buying it so it doesn't matter at all about the revenue. I actually think at some point they might release it but if they do it won't matter much as there are already much more advanced engine source released.

 

As to why they did not support the modding scene, it is because id is not a huge company run by a huge man who has an excessive number of employees that actually do all the work for him. In otherwords no one has time to do it. Though if you knew much about it you would know they recently hired someone for just that purpose (although he has other responsibiilties as well) Here you can read about it. I do not know if he will actually do his job or not though.

 

In relation to this and TDM. If youguys wait until the engine is GPL'ed then you should release your own product on CD. Remember you can sell it as well as long as you include your own source code. I find it funny that Carmack has long advocated people try this, but no one has been willing to expose their own source code even though he gave his away.

[Al3xand3r]

Well I'm not a programmer but I believe that when you start a HL2 mod you have various options. Either start "from scratch" which includes very basic gameplay implementations, start with the HL2 SP codebase, start with the HL2 Deathmatch codebase, or start with the Counter-Strike: Source codebase... Anyone with experience feel free to correct me. I don't know if it would be possible to replace the physics engine or the renderer but I know people did that for HL1 projects... If HL2 was less open than HL1 then I don't think it would have been so popular for modifications.

The SDK for HL2 includes loads of small utilities and sample source files, plus the codebase, the Hammer level editor, and a version of XSI for modeling.

Edited March 10, 2006 by Al3xand3r

[Gildoran]

If I remember correctly, HL2 uses a licensed havok physics engine, which means modders aren't allowed to look at its code, let alone modify it. (though I suppose they could add their own physics engine) The Doom 3 SDK, however, comes with the full sourcecode for the physics engine, and you can modify it any way you want.

[Al3xand3r]

If u've played Garry's Mod for HL2 then you'd know you can do all sorts of things with that physics engine even if you don't even try to manipulate it at a low level... I don't think anyone would want to replace it at all...

 

But either way, don't think we should argue about this particular sort of issue since it seems none of you guys actually have any experience with it (HL2SDK) and only speculate about what you can or can't do and I'm not a programmer

 

Also, Valve licenced Havok1 but then working with its creators vastly improved it up to the standard of the new Havok2 (which in itself spawned from that colaboration). So Valve in a sense still has Havok1 but it's so upgraded movng to Havok2 wouldn't make almost any difference to them.

Edited March 10, 2006 by Al3xand3r

[Gildoran]

Alexander: To give an example, if you wanted to make a mod where gravity can change directions in certain areas, (this could be cool for MP maps set in space - imagine being about to walk around a centrifuge and shoot at players "above" you) you'd probably be very hard pressed to get it to interact with physics, even with access to the SDK. Doom 3 on the other hand... well, you've probably heard about Prey.

 

Yes, you can do a lot with HL2 physics, but there's always something that the designers had no way of anticipating, so there's a need for being able to extend it.

[Al3xand3r]

Prey developers have licenced the engine, thus have access to the engine core and most likely more and very experienced programmers.

 

Dystopia is a Half-Life 2 modification and its developers have implemented a similar effect for their "cyberspace" map sections. There, one player may be walking on the ceiling and the other on a wall or floor as they are able to switch their "personal gravity" by walking through certain parts of the map (the controls always remaining the same, jumping functional as always, etc). I'm sure that if their goal had been Prey style gameplay they could have done it as well.

 

So, can we stop talking about this particular issue for the reasons I gave in my previous post? Unless of course someone with good knowledge of both SDKs pops up.

Edited March 11, 2006 by Al3xand3r

[Gildoran]

Although Prey may have access to more than just the SDK, it IS possible to entirely change gameplay/physics in D3 due to the fact that all physics and gameplay code are stored entirely in the SDK. Changing the player's orientation/gravity is one thing, but having physics systems interact properly with different gravity fields is entirely another... Do the cyberspace sections have physics objects in them?

 

I know that HL2 has some great physics (I've had fun playing on maps with collaspable lookout towers), but my point is that no matter how good a physics system is, there's always things that aren't possible, unless you have access to change its code, which I believe you don't in HL2.

[Al3xand3r]

Do the cyberspace sections have physics objects in them?

No, they don't, physics objects are generally avoided in multiplayer mods because of lag issues, of which Doom 3 has plenty even without such objects (but I guess you'll tell me that, in theory, you can make all new and suitable netcode, hurray!). Does the Prey multiplayer aspect rely that much on physics objects? I know the single player does have that. Has any Doom 3 mod actually done that kind of advancement? Or are you trying to tell me D3 is superior to mod just because in theory you can do things no real mod team could realisticaly achieve?

 

Also, sure you have the ability to totally replace the physics engine of D3... But, I would imagine that if you have so much skill, time and resources as to make a brand new and better than havok2 physics engine, then you might as well make your own graphics engine too, perhaps based on the recently open sourced quake3, and make a stand alone product, hell maybe even sell it.

 

You chose to mod an engine because it has things you need, not because it allows you to, in theory, rip all of its parts out and make all new ones from scratch, no? Maybe in some aspects it matters to have that but, I'm sure that in those aspects HL2 is just as open.

 

Again, I'm not a programmer, and you don't have experience with the HL2 SDK so it's no use talking about this. For all we know there could be a way to replace the physics engine but nobody has tried to do it, thus nobody has seen how it can be possible...

Edited March 12, 2006 by Al3xand3r

[Gildoran]

I'm not saying D3 is superior or that I want to replace the physics engines... I'm saying modifiability is important. With HL2, you could probably write your own physics engine, but as you said, why would you want to? But, the fact that HL2's physics code is closed off makes it difficult to arbitrarily extend it.

[Vadrosaul]

Starforce possibly intentionally discrediting developers: http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10527

 

IMO the majority of those who crack games do so because they never had any intention of buying it. You don't really lose a sale. That doesn't make it right, obviously, but that's just how it is. You were never going to make that sale.

[Domarius]

Yeah - in my experience, MOST copies are just made because they can be, I reckon only 5 or 10 percent of people who copied a game actually would have bought that game if they were forced to.

 

They do lose sales from piracy, but using the number of downloads of a warez title is not an accurate measuring stick, which shows the mentality of the Starforce guy. He seems to think that every download is a lost sale - then he revised that statement to be that every download is 3 lost sales because the person who downloads it gives it to their friends. It's no wonder this guy also thinks that making the copy protection work on the driver level has no negative impacts, and announcing that if they do, they were trying to crack the game anyway...

 

And you look at some of the emails he's been sending to people (posted on various sites now), the way he writes, he's a moron.

[sparhawk]

In relation to this and TDM. If youguys wait until the engine is GPL'ed then you should release your own product on CD.

 

Yeah. We could do that, but we still would have to esnure that there is no art asset used from the original game, because only the source is GPL'ed.

[sparhawk]

I don't know if it would be possible to replace the physics engine or the renderer but I know people did that for HL1 projects...

 

HL1 was a Quake (or was it Quake 2) engine, so it was Carmacks engine after all. As I said, Carmakc is a very open coder and also Quake was coded in such a way that blocks could be "easily" exchanged. You can not replace the physics engine from HL2 easily, because this requires the sourcecode from the game (which you don't have) and Havoc is a licenced engine anyway. So either the physics has to be impleneted in an API kind of fashion to allow replacement, or you need the sourcecode, which I severly doubt.

 

If HL2 was less open than HL1 then I don't think it would have been so popular for modifications.

 

As I said, there are many reasons why modders choose an engine, and so far when I talked to some, t doesn't always seem to be the technical aspects. In most cases there was quite a big of fanboyism involved in the decision.

 

The SDK for HL2 includes loads of small utilities and sample source files, plus the codebase, the Hammer level editor, and a version of XSI for modeling.

 

The question is what the codebase really provides. I can't say, because I don't use HL2 and I don't intend to find it out just for this thread as I'm quite satisfied with the Doom 3 engine.

[sparhawk]

If u've played Garry's Mod for HL2 then you'd know you can do all sorts of things with that physics engine even if you don't even try to manipulate it at a low level... I don't think anyone would want to replace it at all...

 

I doubt that either. The Havoc engine seems to be quite a fine piece. But it also depends on what you want to do. Physics engine differ in their implementation a lot. This means that physics engine are usually modelled to achive a particular goal best. So if you want to do highspeed physics, Havoc may or may not be suitable and there are other areas as well. Modding isn't always about creating a game, you can just as well use the game engine to visualze scientific data processed by the physics engine.

[sparhawk]

No, they don't, physics objects are generally avoided in multiplayer mods because of lag issues, of which Doom 3 has plenty even without such objects (but I guess you'll tell me that, in theory, you can make all new and suitable netcode, hurray!).

 

To some extent you can, but the core network code is in the propriatary part. This is not much of a concern for us, though, because we don't need it anyway.

 

Or are you trying to tell me D3 is superior to mod just because in theory you can do things no real mod team could realisticaly achieve?

 

You should look at the technical aspects, not wether Doom 3 is superior or HL2, because if you continue this line of arguing, it's just boring childish flamewar stuff. Gildoran just tried to explain to you that, no matter how good a particular engine is, there is always something the developer did NOT think off, and this is where the need for the sourcecode comes in. Since HL2 is closed, it means there are limitations on what you can do with it.

 

Also, sure you have the ability to totally replace the physics engine of D3... But, I would imagine that if you have so much skill, time and resources as to make a brand new and better than havok2 physics engine, then you might as well make your own graphics engine too, perhaps based on the recently open sourced quake3, and make a stand alone product, hell maybe even sell it.

 

Aparently you can't leave out your childish fanboyism again. Nobody said that we want to replace the physics engine or write our own. But it may be a surprise to you because somebody already replaced the physics engine in D3 for his own, and we also considered this at some point, but it was not a priority for us, because it is suitable enough for our purposes. This is where your short little mind can't cope with. We don't need the most 3771 cewl physics engine, because we are satsified for our purposes. Replacing it with another engine would add nothing to our mod which noticable would increase the gameplay value.

 

You chose to mod an engine because it has things you need, not because it allows you to, in theory, rip all of its parts out and make all new ones from scratch, no? Maybe in some aspects it matters to have that but, I'm sure that in those aspects HL2 is just as open.

 

I'm sure that HL2 is NOT as open, because it is closed, and therfere can not be as open by defintion.

 

Again, I'm not a programmer, and you don't have experience with the HL2 SDK so it's no use talking about this. For all we know there could be a way to replace the physics engine but nobody has tried to do it, thus nobody has seen how it can be possible...

 

Again you miss the point entirely. Nobody was arguing about the physics engine as if it were the most important thing, this was just an example. We can just as well use the scripting egnine, or other parts as examples what can be changed.

[sparhawk]

IMO the majority of those who crack games do so because they never had any intention of buying it. You don't really lose a sale. That doesn't make it right, obviously, but that's just how it is. You were never going to make that sale.

 

Crackers crack protections because the can. Downloaders download it, because they don't want to buy it. Major difference. For crackers it can be either a business or the fun of it, but I doubt that most crackers do it to avoid the sale.