Ai Modelling Tasks

[Springheel]

Is there anything along the spine that doesn't move? Isn't their a 'waist' bone? We just need something that doesn't move--even if it isn't technically near the belt area, we can always offset the models appropriately.

 

I think it's a deal-breaker if we can't find one, however--we'll need such a bone for anything carried on the belt, including weapons, keys, etc, as well as weapons carried on the back.

[ascottk]

Is there anything along the spine that doesn't move? Isn't their a 'waist' bone? We just need something that doesn't move--even if it isn't technically near the belt area, we can always offset the models appropriately.

 

I think it's a deal-breaker if we can't find one, however--we'll need such a bone for anything carried on the belt, including weapons, keys, etc, as well as weapons carried on the back.

 

We want something that moves appropriately & would look natural for whatever's attached.

 

I would say Shoulders for the back and Hips still look like a good candidate.

[Springheel]

Won't 'shoulders' move any time there is an animation that has the character bending foward? That won't work for things on the hips. That's the problem with using anything in the upper torso.

 

I can run a few tests if you want. Which D3 AI uses the skeleton you're testing?

[ascottk]

Won't 'shoulders' move any time there is an animation that has the character bending foward? That won't work for things on the hips. That's the problem with using anything in the upper torso.

 

I can run a few tests if you want. Which D3 AI uses the skeleton you're testing?

 

We would want anything on the AI's back to move with the bend & I was refering to anything attached to their back.

 

I'm using the skeleton.md5mesh & most human AI use the same skeleton.

[Springheel]

We would want anything on the AI's back to move with the bend & I was refering to anything attached to their back.

 

Sorry, I misread that as, "for the back and hips".

[ascottk]

Update on the builder guard:

 

He's doing his damnest to attack me but the attack doesn't really work (inheriting npc_base).

 

 

But when I inherit inherit atdm:ai_humanoid, I get this:

 

Anyone have an idea why this happens?

[Ishtvan]

What the crap?? I dunno, my only guess is that some of the skeleton stuff was changed in tdm:ai_humanoid_base, it has to be set up again for the new structure if it was changed. That's where the anims and anim channels and stuff are defined, the melee attack animations defined, etc. The anim names must match the ones in this file too.

 

If you're using the D3 skeleton, maybe that's why npc_base doesn't have screwed up joints, but npc_base doesn't use any of the tdm code, that's a D3 script, so I'd imagine some things would be screwed up. You could try merging your new skeleton stuff into atdm:ai_humanoid_base and seeing if it works.

[ascottk]

atdm:ai_humanoid_base doesn't show the mesh but atdm:ai_base works.

[Domarius]

What's the problem? All skeletons have a hip joint. That's all you were attaching belt items to.

[ascottk]

Dammit guys, I've been trying to fix the rig on these hands but I keep getting the same b.s. Everything else works great.

 

 

I'm going to try rigging the hand to a different bone.

[Domarius]

What is your process? And what software are you using?

[ascottk]

What is your process? And what software are you using?

I'm getting all the details and probems ironed out. It's the first time I'm using the skin modifier in 3ds max.

 

One issue I had is rigging separate meshes, the hands are separate from the arms and stuff like that. I'm finding out I can attach the problematic meshes by attaching them so they'd be one mesh (the max md5 exporters treat different materials as separate meshes so d3 materials are not an issue). Another problem I had was trying to rig the hands to *hand or *hand1 bones (*=l or r) but it's the *HANDCONNECTOR bones I need to attach the hand meshes to.

 

The builderguard is problematic to rig because of the metal skirt he's wearing so I'm experimenting with ways to rig that. The cityguard elite is a lot easier to work with.

 

Another thing is vertex weights & which bones the vertices connect to. I'm coming up with different ways to rig the metal skirt, the lower part is connected to the upper legs, waist, & hips while the top is connected to the hips and waist. This isn't working out too well but it's better that I had it.

[Domarius]

I can't help but think you would have saved a lot of time just using the Maya workflow. You might not like the actual app (neither do I) but all the info to rig and get something into Doom 3 is readily available. oDDity has been doing it for ages, and now I'm doing it too.

[ascottk]

I can't help but think you would have saved a lot of time just using the Maya workflow. You might not like the actual app (neither do I) but all the info to rig and get something into Doom 3 is readily available. oDDity has been doing it for ages, and now I'm doing it too.

 

I found a post by oDDity on doom 3 world that says he did most of the work in lightwave. I don't know if that included rigging though.

 

As for maya, I think it's actually counterproductive. First of all, you have to have separate meshes that point to different textures if you don't want the md5 conversion to combine the meshes. Secondly, the material name in maya do not support d3 material names (no textures/blah/blah). Then you have to rename all the freaking material names in the md5.

 

With max, I can have different materials that don't point to any texture at all. The exporters automatically create submeshes based on the materials & I don't have to rename anything. Just export, test in d3, tweak in max, export, test again. Besides, why learn some crappy, nonintuitive software when I already know something that works better? So Dom, no more about the maya workflow please. It plugs up the flow. Besides, if the workflow is so improved with maya, where's the resized models you were doing?

[New Horizon]

I found a post by oDDity on doom 3 world that says he did most of the work in lightwave. I don't know if that included rigging though.

 

Yeah, oDD does all his modeling in Lightwave...but I seem to recall him saying that rigging in Lightwave sucked ass, so the rest of the work was done in Maya. Working with the apps your comfortable with is a good rule of thumb, unless another app offers some obvious advantage.

[Domarius]

I found a post by oDDity on doom 3 world that says he did most of the work in lightwave. I don't know if that included rigging though.

 

As for maya, I think it's actually counterproductive. First of all, you have to have separate meshes that point to different textures if you don't want the md5 conversion to combine the meshes. Secondly, the material name in maya do not support d3 material names (no textures/blah/blah). Then you have to rename all the freaking material names in the md5.

 

With max, I can have different materials that don't point to any texture at all. The exporters automatically create submeshes based on the materials & I don't have to rename anything. Just export, test in d3, tweak in max, export, test again. Besides, why learn some crappy, nonintuitive software when I already know something that works better? So Dom, no more about the maya workflow please. It plugs up the flow.

If you can come up with something better, that's great. I was just letting you know there was already something there.

Besides, if the workflow is so improved with maya, where's the resized models you were doing?

I don't respond well to unessecary rudeness. The delay is due to having a job and assessment period at the moment, not Maya.

[Domarius]

Also that's a pretty unfair stab since I am one of the only people who tries to put dates on things I do (see my journal). Only just now I moved the due date for the resizing from today (the day after you asked why I hadn't done anything) to one week ahead.

 

Some issues of note;

 

Maybe you could do a tutorial sometime on a 3D Max workflow that you come up with, because I would like to move to it. I'm used to 3DS Max more, and if you have already developed a workflow that works, and it's faster, then I know I'm not the only one here who would benifit from that.

 

Also if we're going to move to a new rig, how does that fit in with the resizing I have to do? I think maybe I should use the existing models since that was what Spring based the sizes off on the resize chart he did.

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...amp;#entry79517

And then after that, we can convert them to the new rig, and just maintain the size of the previous models.

[ascottk]

Also that's a pretty unfair stab since I am one of the only people who tries to put dates on things I do (see my journal). Only just now I moved the due date for the resizing from today (the day after you asked why I hadn't done anything) to one week ahead.

 

Some issues of note;

 

Maybe you could do a tutorial sometime on a 3D Max workflow that you come up with, because I would like to move to it. I'm used to 3DS Max more, and if you have already developed a workflow that works, and it's faster, then I know I'm not the only one here who would benifit from that.

 

Also if we're going to move to a new rig, how does that fit in with the resizing I have to do? I think maybe I should use the existing models since that was what Spring based the sizes off on the resize chart he did.

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...amp;#entry79517

And then after that, we can convert them to the new rig, and just maintain the size of the previous models.

 

Sorry I was an asshole. I'm a helluva lot more patient & less rude in RL.

 

As for 3ds max, the skin modifier is the only rigging modifier supported by the md5 exporters. Vertex mode seems to work best but you have to manually type in the Abs. Effect in the weight properties. Envelopes and cross sections seem to work too but they are less precise. Use the berserker md5 exporter (der ton's & berserker's exporters don't need separate meshes, just materials). Der Ton's does the job but you'd have to rename the materials in the md5.

 

Resizing in Maya is extremely simple. Select everything, polys & bones, edit>group (ctrl-g), type in decimal percentage in the scale section of the attribute tab, then ungroup, save, exportmodels, then it should work. I tried the builder guard this way but not all of the vertices were assigned in oDD's model & I didn't want to mess with it in maya.

 

Resizing in max works pretty much the same way.

[ascottk]

Well, the good news is I tried it with the proguard & the sword attached fine in the RightHand so the current AIs seem to do well. I've been trying different things rig-wise to get the attachment working on my rigs. Here's a shot of that strange black sheet I've been talking about (it's supposed to be a sword):

 

 

It shrank considerably since I last tried it.

[Springheel]

Well, the good news is I tried it with the proguard & the sword attached fine in the RightHand so the current AIs seem to do well.

 

Yeah, I've attached several things to our AI's hands without any problems. I still can't think of what would cause the result in that image...it's just bizarre. As far as I know, as long as the attachment entity points to a bone that actually exists, the object shows up--maybe in a weird spot or oddly rotated, but nothing like that screenshot.

[Springheel]

Also if we're going to move to a new rig, how does that fit in with the resizing I have to do? I think maybe I should use the existing models since that was what Spring based the sizes off on the resize chart he did. And then after that, we can convert them to the new rig, and just maintain the size of the previous models.

 

Yes, that's what I would suggest. Ascottk has already resized one (some?) of the models, however, so make sure you guys keep the lines of communication open so we don't duplicate any work.

[ascottk]

Yes, that's what I would suggest. Ascottk has already resized one (some?) of the models, however, so make sure you guys keep the lines of communication open so we don't duplicate any work.

 

I think there's a problem with the berserker md5 exporter for max. I converted the builder max file with d3 bones to maya then used the d3 exporter & the attachment worked fine. I'll try the der ton exporter to see if it happens there.

[New Horizon]

I think there's a problem with the berserker md5 exporter for max. I converted the builder max file with d3 bones to maya then used the d3 exporter & the attachment worked fine. I'll try the der ton exporter to see if it happens there.

 

Yeah, I think you're right. I recall reading somewhere on doom3world that some of the exporters where pretty glitchy like that. Don't remember where it was though.

[ascottk]

Okay guys, slowly but surely I'm learning how to use maya. The max exporters have been too unreliable

 

On another note, animation-wise there is no advantage to use d3 skeletons (aside from the heads). The thing I was wondering about was the sword/hammer draw animations & I don't think I could duplicate that effect with d3 skeletons without elaborate hacks. But we could use d3 skeletons for civilians and whatnot.

 

Max won't be without it's uses though. I could still modify the meshes in the max & export them to maya for rigging.

 

There's still going to issues with def files & telling the d3 exporter which bones to keep & their heirarchies. Without having weapons to bind the bones to, the exporter won't include them in the mesh. Besides, I think any skill with maya would be helpful in the "real world".

[Springheel]

On another note, animation-wise there is no advantage to use d3 skeletons (aside from the heads).

 

What do you mean? Won't we be able to directly apply animations made for D3 characters that use the same skeleton?

 

I was wondering about was the sword/hammer draw animations & I don't think I could duplicate that effect with d3 skeletons without elaborate hacks.

 

Erm.... Confused again. Why can't we just make a new draw animation, using Ishtvan's system of transfering attached objects between bones? (once the attaching to hand problem is fixed, of course)

 

 

I'm unclear about why those problems exist, but if they're true, then what is the point of using the D3 rig in the first place?