Baddcog's Bots

[Springheel]

The legs you have drawn there are really very similar to the lantern bots legs

 

I don't have any problem with the lantern bot legs. It's the dog legs that look too sophisticated to me. My vision of steambots is that they should move in a somewhat awkward fashion, like a wind-up toy.

 

so if I made a version with legs to the side that was 4 feet tall he'd be to wide for doors.

 

Well, again, we don't have to assume bots are capable of going everywhere a human guard could. I'd have no problem with some large bots that were too big to fit through doors. These bots would patrol streets, mansion grounds, hallways, etc. Having said that, it would probably be possible to use a variation of those legs that were positioned more underneath the bot rather than sticking out.

 

I don't mind doing a biped but we do need to sort out that issue. Either we don't care, maybe it could swing side/side like the t2 bots for counterbalance or we judt don't even worry about that.

 

As long as it looks decent, I don't think we should worry about it. Bots require huge amounts of suspension of disbelief anyway.

 

I'm not sure how many members are checking this thread, should we start a new thread/poll kindof thing that says "all team members opinions required"?

 

People who aren't posting probably don't have strong feelings one way or another. We generally don't vote on concept art--we go with an 'interested consensus' with the art director (me) making any necessary vetos or tie breakers.

[SneaksieDave]

I'm not sure how many members are checking this thread, should we start a new thread/poll kindof thing that says "all team members opinions required"?

I'd be for that (though it probably wouldn't make a difference). Many times I find myself butting heads on a topic that I wish the rest would chime in on (especially if in support ) instead of the same few people each time.

 

I don't know much anything about rigging or animating, but I wonder if the Doom3 escort bot doggy thing's rig/anims could be used to make our bots look superb?

[Baddcog]

I'm not sure we really need the doom anims. That bot does behave differently than these will.

 

I'm gonna try my hand at animating the riggin/lantern bot. I've done a bit of this stuff here and there but as I could never use it in T2 I just never got around to using it enough.

Anyway, I think it'll be better to use our own anims, we can make them alot 'rougher' clumsier steambot style than the doom ones, that bot was really smooth.

 

If I am unsuccessful with that I'll hand it off to another animator (I say another like I can be considered one )

[Baddcog]

I posted a thread at ttlg, asking what people liked/disliked about t2 bots:

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?...340#post1594340

 

and got a few comments. the lockpick idea was mentioned, Digi posted a cool T2 concept bot...

[Springheel]

The T2 bot concepts are pretty neat. I prefer the bipedal one.

[Baddcog]

T2 Concept art posted by Digi at TTLG

 

pretty cool, scary too. Should we 'rip' the idea and bring it to life.

 

I notices the legs are attached to the head, and arms to body, very strange.

 

The head couldn't rotate, but I bet this robot couls swivel around fairly quick anyway.

 

I think it would attack with arms, which would be a cool addition to an arrow bot. I think it would also spray gas from mouth.

 

So gas might not go to far but if player got caught in corner. It would just look cool seeing this thing get up in your face, arms flailing, and a green gas pouring from it's mouth.

 

 

 

 

another concept I'm not as fond of

 

[Springheel]

I have no problems with something like the top one. I'd put the legs on the body though, and make the head extendable (and more animal-like), like we had for DeepO's bot. Then the arms could be for hand-to-hand fighting, and the head could shoot crossbow bolts for long-range attacks.

[Redface]

A bunch of quick concepts:

[Baddcog]

Some cool ideas.

 

I had actually thought about something like the 4 face one (I was thinkin 3). But have like a rotating head. I dunno, maybe one to look, one to listen, one to shoot. Anyway, different functions so there'd be a reason for many faces.

I like the spider bot thing, but there are drawbacks I guess. The small lantern bot I already made had legs to the side. It's small enough to fit thru most doors. I wouldn't mind having a bigger one that would fit thru large doors only, but probably first we need 3 that will. If I can get some anims going good and save other animators time then I'd like to do a forth after that.

I changed the legs to dog leg style for a larger one but Springheel didn't like em, too complicated.

 

I like the sawblad hands too. I know sawblades have come up and we want a biped that'll do hand to hand.

 

I really like the tall T2 concept too that Springheel likes. I like the legs coming from head though, I think it's kindof a convoluted 'sick' idea. Mad scientist stuff for sure. Speingheel thought the legs should be on body though.

I've tried to sketch out eveery possible idea I could come up with to make the legs look good on body and still keep the balance that it has, to me it just makes sense. But I couldn't come up with any thing I liked as much.

Hard to improve on a really cool thing.

 

Maybe you could try something along that vien too, but more to Springheel's liking.

 

I like the first 'werewolf' lookin one alot, but not sure Springheel will go for that one either. (either way he needs to make up his mind)

 

The second looks to much like T2 to me (not complaining just commenting), we'd like to stay away from that. The other 2 bipeds might fit in that "balance issue problem catagory"

The round one, I don't know. Looks slow, I think everyone wants mean aggressive.

I'd also like to do a gargoyle/animal style face, so concepts on mean scary faces alone would be very helpful too.

 

I gotta say I'm stoked to have someone whip up that many designs in such a short time, I've kindof come to a dead end and all help in this area is greatly appreciated.

-------

 

@ Springheel,

I had searched the web for hours looking at steampunk/ bot designs, ect...

A few things I noticed.

 

1:all bots look the same, really, when it comes to bots there is very little difference in most. Probably most of the most unique designs are starwars bots.

 

2:That T2 concept one was unique for sure, I didn't see anything like it, I think we should go with it, not exact of course but the general layout is awesome.

 

3: all bots are going to have limits. Obviously these are some of the inventors greatest feats and I don't think they should be too simple, I think the steampunk looks will bring enough of that on their own. I also think the more we internalize everything to more complicated they actually look.

For example, the cables on legs of lantern bot look almost like a last minutes "shit, where do these go, how are we gonna move the legs" kindof thing. Very prototype. If they weren't there it would be all internal, clean, too well thought out IMO. Like they'd been refining they're techniques for some time.

Take a model T for example. crank on the outside, new car - key in a nice little unit on steering column. The less complicated things look outside the more sophisticated they look. (I probably am repeating myself, sorry)

[Springheel]

Speingheel thought the legs should be on body though.

 

Only because the bot would have a very difficult time turning with them on the head, and thus would be pretty easy to avoid. If we can deal with that problem I don't mind the idea.

 

I like the first 'werewolf' lookin one alot, but not sure Springheel will go for that one either. (either way he needs to make up his mind)

 

I've been pretty busy with the reorg lately so I might have missed something. What am I making my mind up about?

[Baddcog]

Looks like I spelled your name wrong there...

 

About which bot designs we want to go with. I really haven't touched this thread since we were last discussing it.

 

I just want to get more of a final decisions on designs before I really go anywhere with it, got plenty of other stuff in the fire right now so it's not a rush. I just feel like we're butting heads on all the designs, not that it's a bad thing.

I want to create something that everyone is 90% happy with so it's good for everyone to discuss their ideas...

I feel like you have a very large say in what the final outcome is so I don't want to start anything too serious before I get your OK.

 

I guess my main thing is that I want to do the dogleg style cause it makes most sense to me regarding balance, fitting thru doors, and because it would be a natural thing for the builders to look at almost any animal and be inspired by it's wlaking motions when setting out to build a bot.

for example, they would've seen spiders-thus the lantern bot

dogs, deer, boars - dogleg style bot

humans - biped bot.

 

I also think with one bot of each type to start would be the best way to mix it up. Of course wheel have already been axed, so we can't use that as an alternative style.

[Nyarlathotep]

Personally, I'm all for "

." The motor whine is really annoying, but I could definitely see a steampunk version of this working well.

 

Only because the bot would have a very difficult time turning with them on the head, and thus would be pretty easy to avoid. If we can deal with that problem I don't mind the idea.

How about the fact that the torque on the legs from the boiler section would be utterly ridiculous and make the design completely untenable. Don't tell me I'm the only one who sees this.

[Baddcog]

Well, this is somwhat my point.

No matter what design is posted someone doesn't like it.

It keeps coming down to reality, physics, ect...

At some point in time we all have to remember that it's a game and reality is only a part of it, most games aren't physicists.

 

Goes back to the T2 bots. Those big bots would've fallen over the first time they took a step, but I never heard anyone mention it, it was just a big scary bot Ai, that's all. We could argue til the ends of the earth and all we'd get is no bots cause they aren't realistic.

 

The Darkmod is a mix of steampunk, dark ages and magic. Where's the reality. Why do we argue the reality of bots but not the entire Darkmod universe. None of it is very realistic if you think about it. Other than the fact there are humans,spiders, wood, stone and fire. everything else is fantasy.

Fortunately players aren't worried about that, they want a cool game to play, scary bots and Ai to hide from.

 

That vid is the perfect example. 21st century bot. It stumbles around without a head. It uses lightweight electronics and remote control. It can't think, it can just balance. There's a guy following it around controlling it.

So maybe if we want realistic bots we should get rid of the steam technology, water is heavy. So is coal, wood, all the fuels that would be used basically.

They should stumble around and always have an Ai with a remote in his hand following them. Then when they find you it's because the Ai led them to you and he can then proceed to attack for the completely dumb and useless robots.

Then we might as well not have robots cause that's no fun.

 

then we can add to the list of unrealistic gameplay:

*rope arrows: you couldn't shoot an arrow very far with a 10 foot long rope strong enough to hold a man

*noise arrows: while a really cool concept (better than LGS's original I think), I really don't think it would fly very far. We should just give the player a noise rock, whatever he throws it at will make a noise.

*health potion: well potion kindof says it. Maybe we should give em a red bull

*electric lights with tesla control: you see where I'm going with this....

 

At some point we need to get over the physics and reality and say "yeah, cool design, lets do it"

[Springheel]

At some point we need to get over the physics and reality and say "yeah, cool design, lets do it"

 

I've never been particularly concerned about realism with bots as they're totally unrealistic anyway. But at the same time we want something that seems cool and doesn't look too anachronistic.

 

The youtube movie, btw, is not an example of dog legs. I don't have any particular problem with the legs in that movie, since they have only one 'joint' in the leg (a knee or an inverted knee, depending on the leg). My problem with the dog legs is the multiple joints on a single leg (a knee and extended ankle joint), which is what makes it look more complex.

 

I don't know why we can't do something similar to the original bot design Deep O modeled, or the T2 bipedal bot, both of which are pretty similar. Everyone seemed to like the original bot once it got bigger feet.

[Baddcog]

Springheel, what do you think of that multi faced concept up there by redface?

 

I think that could be a pretty cool feature for one of em to have. I also like the whole concept really. If we're not too worried about all of em fitting thru single doorways than the spider style legs on it wouldn't matter.

Like I said before, maybe one head for looking, one for hearing, one for attacking. maybe just three faces to simplify.

Kindof a see no, hear no speak no evil thing. Maybe the heads could spin one at a time when it's searching, some lights could blink.

Like it is using one head to look, then makes some noise and the head spins 1/3 and then it's listening, then when it's ready to attack it spins to other haed and opens mouth.

For that one I'd say maybe flame thrower. maybe poison darts... obviously the head would be too small for full size arrows.

It's kindof creepy, could probably get around fairly fast and balance good. With the head spinning the body wouldn't have to turn to attack. and the legs are simple one knee no ankle.

--also, either or: maybe that would be a cool style for a camera bot, the faces hanging... locks doors and sprays gas from mouth to fill room slowly. (good for hallways, not large rooms) Or could scream...

 

that could be one of em.

-------------

I could get rid of the dogleg option (arghh ), not that big of a deal but I like em.

And make them simpler. But I think in that case it would be best to spread em apart more, back to a spider style stance, see bot above.

 

I would just really like to make a biped bot that is very unlike T2 bots. I know people like em alright, but it would be cool to have something different. So far that T2 concept is the only one that really got me excited. I take that back, I do like the sawblade one by redface quite a bit. Who would want that coming after them?

 

As far as Deep Omega's:

I like it, I liked the model that was done. I guess the team isn't as concerned about balance as it once was. But I read thru those threads and that subject came up over and over, guess that's why I'm so concerned about it now.

I think my main issue with that is copying the bot that was already made. I could probably get it pretty close, mmm, I don't know exactly. On the one hand it's a cool concept and a great job was done on it.

On the other hand I'd almost not want to rehash it I guess. It is similar to the T2 bots and that might be why I'd rather go another route.

I know that's somewhat of a moot point as alot of Darkmod is based on thief style everything, but at the same time everything is original and improved apon. Like the noise maker with a wind up box. Along that same vien, I think it's cool to include bots but think it would be even cooler to seperate them from the existing T2 styles as much as possible. Of course like I posted above it's hard to come up with a bot style someone hasn't done, and most seem to be vaguely familiar anyway.

 

I don't know, I'm still chewing on all of it, that's why I brought this thread up again, just to see if we could get some more thoughts flowing on the matter.

[Springheel]

Springheel, what do you think of that multi faced concept up there by redface?

 

It's pretty similar to the other T2 concept art, isn't it? I don't have any objections to a multi-faced bot--in fact, I even suggested one in the beginning as an elite bot, that actually could see in two directions and was therefore much harder to hide from.

 

I also don't mind the idea of only one face that sees and the other faces are for attacks, shouting warnings, etc (though how it aims at you if it can't see you I don't know).

 

If you wanted to do something like that it would be fine with me.

 

I would just really like to make a biped bot that is very unlike T2 bots.

 

I don't want to see something like the T2 bots either (though I have no problem with the concept art). That's why I liked the more bird-like design we had. I can understand you not wanting to copy it exactly, but there are a lot of ways to do something similar (the T2 concept art really isn't that different except for the legs on the head). Perhaps a combination of that and the spinning blade concept would work.

 

In the end, I doubt we're going to have the time and resources to rig and animate more than one or two bots anyway, at least before the first release, so there's no rush on a second version.

[Baddcog]

the multiface one is similar to the concept somewhat. I think I like the heads being up above better though, more of a sentry look out kindof thing going. With the heads up high like that it would be taller for sure compared to overall size.

I'd rather be closer to T2 concept stuff than T2 actual stuff becausit hasn't been done yet, only concieved.

I'll have to mess with the different head functions. My thought is they all have eyes anyway, the listening part I'm not too sure about.

One could have big doppy ears

 

No seriously I think something more like2 faces face foward most of the time. Maybe have glowing eyes. Maybe it's easier for the bot to look

in a larger feild of view since they have 2 heads pointing generally foward and they can spin the head to look around.So they'd have more of a 240 degree view instead of a regular ai at about 180.

Maybe their weak spot is hearing, they can't hear as good but can see really good.

Then if it does see you the 3rd head 'wakes up', it's mouth and eyes open and the head spins toward player and attacks.

I wonder how the vision cones work, do they always face front of ai, or are they attached to head? Maybe the head attachment is on the neck which would spin with the 2 faces until alert and the head spins without the neck (the player doesn't even have to see this).

But basically the ai would be looking from the neck, so whatever head it looks like it is using doesn't have to change vision cones with other heads.

 

--edit--

So this could be a vision bot. The player wouldn't have to be as quite to sneak around it, but would have to be very careful to not be seen.

Maybe it 'spits' gas bombs,darts, or fire. I think the head would be too small for arrows and possibly crossbow bolts.

Wide base so large areas would be good, also good for the vision enhancment. Should be able to get around pretty quickly I imagine.

Maybe this one could have a lock panel in back, since it can't hear as good it might be possible to sneak up and 'lock it', maybe actually lock it to shut it down instead of unlocking.

 

The lantern bot is more of a listener, can't see well so a quite player could sneak by it if not making alot of noise, but once the player makes noise they are done. Maybe fairly quick, should be able to get around pretty good in tight spots. kill by sword? arrows, mines.

 

the last bot could be just overall average/vision hearing. Possibly very similar to the original Deep Omega one. But saw blades would be cool on it's arms. more of a hand to hand. designed to go almost anywhere. boiler grate in back to put out? water arrows.

-------

I think that's a pretty good combo of attacks, shut down methods, bot designs and bot abilities.

[Springheel]

Yeah, I like the idea of three faces, with the center one kind of 'asleep' until it is time to attack. Then the eyes start to glow or something as a warning that an attack is imminent.

 

I don't think it's very difficult at all to change an AI's FOV, so giving it a wider FOV would be a nice idea, and help make it more difficult to avoid.

 

It should have some kind of melee defense as well...perhaps a single arm with a spinning blade that extends from the front? Or perhaps some kind of pincer-like hand, which would also allow it to open doors.

[Baddcog]

Oh yeah, I was thinking that too. deffinately needs some hands, maybe just one.hmmm, one or two?

 

I think there'd be a bit more rigging invloved in the head on this one so might be nice for only one hand for that reason. 2 might look better though.

 

How about one, it's on front of body so it could only do hand to hand from front (which isn't it's strong point anyway, better at shooting). But that would also give the player more idea peeking around corners which way it is heading. Generally it will look the way it's going unless it stops to search (rotating head)

So a player can see from a distance which way is front (helping them as it will have good sight and be in larger more open areas), then they'd know which side has the lock mechanism.

The joints could be oriented like the legs, elbow up higher than shoulder. the claw could pinch left/right.

 

Ah, I'll draw up a quick pic.

Cheesy I know, but maybe a comedy/tragedy theme? I think maybe more human faces on this one. A spooky comedy face though, not that smiley one in this pic. evil smiley. Like it's gonna be happy to kill ya, and maybe sad about it at the same time.

 

maybe an animal face for the other.

[Springheel]

Yes, I like that basic idea. One arm/hand is fine, I think--helps add some asymmetry.

 

The head shouldn't make anything more complicated for rigging--all three faces can be set as a single head on one neck joint, since they don't move independently of each other.

 

As for the type of faces, I'm not sure about the comedy/tragedy masks. The first thing that came to mind for me was a chimera--a goat face and a lion face on the sides, and a dragon/snake one in the middle that spits darts or something. That might be a little overdone for a single head, though.

 

Here are some pics for inspiration:

 

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/3069/anjos1.jpg

 

http://www.infogirl.org/img/apr06/three%20headed%20shiva.jpg

 

http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/17857.jpg

 

http://www.yogajournal.com/history/gifs/pa...liYogaSutra.jpg

 

 

here's one on the tragedy/comedy theme:

 

http://www.maskitalia.com/assets/bijan_web/FL151.jpg

 

I don't know, it could work, but I have a feeling it would wind up being cheesy.

[Baddcog]

I do like the idea of goat/lion/snake

 

Not really sure about comedy/tragedy myself either realy, just something i thought of while doing that pic. but different faces is almost a must i think, having 3 of the same kindof loses the effect to a degree.

I do like the fact that comedy/targedy pic has the third mean face in middle.

[Baddcog]

Figured I'd show the progress, been awhile scine I touched this guy. Didn't want it to stagnate too long.

 

Got 'im rigged. gonna try to animate him. That shouldn't be a problem, the rig works good, just have to work through the process once. The first time always seems the hardest but the chest prepped me a little.

 

I decided to leave the 'ear' in the cneter, was really the best spot for it, fills up that space and with it there he can turn to hear in almost all directions without it bumping the lantern.

 

I thought my idea of the 'ear' hearing and screaming was kindof lame, plus I know you guys wanted it somewhat asym, so I decided to add a whistle. Should be easy to find a loud whistle noise eh? Simple steam whistle is all.

 

 

Not really sure if we'll need an AF, the death could just be a fall down anim. Player doesn't need to drag bots does s/he? More reason to plan out the kill.

 

----@ springheel

about that face bot, been thinking. Not sure about animal faces. Maybe humanish faces would be better. I really like the looks of the faces on the concept, maybe we can get redface to do a closer detail? I don't want human, but I'm thinking 3 animal faces might be 'lopsided' in a bad way. I think the head should be fairly symetrical and making a goat, lion and snake might be hard to do.

Deffinately in any case hopefully it will turn out to be very gargoylish no matter what. I think that's the main thing.

Redface's looks somewhat lionish from the side. somewhat human from front.

 

I still do like the comedy/tragedy thing to a degree. But not so much com/trag as 2 faces with different expressions,

the attack face almost expressionless.

[Crispy]

Player doesn't need to drag bots does s/he? More reason to plan out the kill.

I agree. (Also, Thief did this, so nobody's going to complain about it. )

 

Looking good! The whistle is a nice touch.

 

I was going to ask why it had spiky grey things all over it, but then I realised it's probably just the rigging. I've been away from 3ds max so long I forgot what their bones looked like.

[Baddcog]

Yeah, I just took that printscreen of max so people could see the bones. I know modelers are familiar but anyone else might like to see some behind the scenes action. Don't blame ya for not wanting to mess with the rigging too much, kindof a pain.

 

Anyway, couple hours to rig and I think it is good. I'm gonna try and do all the anims for him since it is something I have wanted to do for along time. If it works it'll save the other animator time, if not at least I tried.

 

I did upload it to SVN, test_baddcog.map. He's just standing there as animated obj right now to test the idle anim, I like it, not really smooth but he is a steambot after all. kindof rickety anim.

Want to add smoke the the smokestack pops up. got the gauge dial timed to the steam release.

 

Maybe someone can check for me too, I kindof hacked pieces out of the spider def. It seems like he should stand there and play the idle anim, but he doesn't. Haven't finished all the IK defs or added an af yet. Don't know if that matters. When set as Ai he does turn to look at ya, will watch you walk around room (from the side, guess I need to rotate him). But he doesn't animate.

[Crispy]

Just fired up test_baddcog.map and had a look. He's so cute! Kawaiiii! (<-- that's "cute" in Japanese. For best results, imagine it said in a high-pitched Japanese anime schoolgirl voice.)

 

The idle anim strikes me as a bit odd though - his body isn't moving at all. Those little spindly legs don't look strong enough to hold the body still in one place while they waggle around so enthusiastically. Try adding a wobble to the body (you set up IK on the legs of your rig, right?) and making the leg-waving a bit less extravagant (or remove it entirely and just make him wobble a bit - an idle animation doesn't need to look very busy).

 

As for him not moving around when set as an AI: When I try it, he does have tasks assigned to him, but he doesn't react in a hostile manner when stimulated with sound, visual, or tactile. This may just be due to missing animations or it could be something else. In any case, at the very least he needs walk and run animations before he can be expected to behave normally as an AI. Walk and run can be the same animation for testing purposes, it just means he'll walk and run at the same speed.

 

Edit: Wait, I tell a lie: If I jump on his head a bit I can make him go into search mode (but he doesn't move; again, no animations). Can't get him into any higher alert state than that.

 

It occurs to me that if he's going to be blind (which is a pretty severe handicap, especially with our AI right now) he may never get to a higher alert stage than search mode... guess we'll need to fix that. He's a non-combatant, right?