Alternate walk cycle available

[Crispy]

Erm... what is a zip file if not compressed?

 

Yes, PK4s are just renamed ZIP files and there are relatively easy ways to replace files within them, but:

 

1. You can be sure that someone will screw it up somehow.

2. Even if they don't, next time they run tdm_update, boom! Changes gone. "Fucking TDM updater overwrote my changes! FUK U NOOBS"

 

Yeah. Welcome to tech support.

 

Springheel has the right approach here. Never encourage people to modify official files, because they'll definitely fuck it up and blame it on us. Instead:

 

- Assets which match the spirit and quality of TDM's internal assets should be incorporated into future updates, with the permission of their authors.

- Anything not falling into the above category can be shipped in an add-on PK4, named in a way that makes it obvious that it's a non-official and unsupported add-on (preferably including the name of the author), which people can simply drop into their darkmod directory. Remember that alphabetically-later PK4s override alphabetically-earlier ones.

 

For example, if your walk cycle wasn't included in TDM but you wanted to release it anyway, you might put the modified files into "z_noisycricket_alternate_walk_cycle.pk4" NB The team needs to discuss the recommended naming convention, but here's my reasoning for this one: The 'z_' prefix is to indicate that it's non-official, and also to make sure it overrides standard TDM assets. Then we have an author name (for easy identification and avoiding naming clashes) and an add-on pack name (so you know what it's for).

 

Note that it must be made clear that anyone using unofficial add-ons is doing so at their own risk, and we can't be held responsible if a future TDM update breaks an add-on.

 

It's probably better all round if stuff made by team members is evaluated for inclusion in TDM first, before it's released as an add-on.

[Noisycricket]

The updater will still overwrite all of the files the user has changed since the user will copy and paste them over to the official folders. If they have made extensive changes to the scripts for small things like difficulty, specific sounds, music or textures, or graphical mods or A.I. settings, that could be one hell of a lot of things to change over and over.

 

The updater is not very customization friendly at the moment, but i don't see why it would have to stay that way.

[Springheel]

I'll have to try the walk a little more tomorrow. On first glance, it doesn't strike me as any better or worse than the one we're currently using. Perhaps a little stiff in the torso/arms, but it's hard to tell in that map when they're constantly walking up stairs. I'll try a side-by-side comparison tomorrow.

[Noisycricket]

Are you using the walk map? "map test/walk"

[Springheel]

Oops, I used test/walk_ik.

[Crispy]

The updater will still overwrite all of the files the user has changed since the user will copy and paste them over to the official folders.

No it won't. New files are not overwritten by the updater. I just tested it, and it leaves them alone just fine.

 

The updater is not very customization friendly at the moment, but i don't see why it would have to stay that way.

What, are you suggesting that we (or more specifically, Tels and/or greebo) implement some kind of scheme to perform diffs on the PK4s so we can preserve changes across updates? I don't mean to be rude, but get real.

 

The scheme I outlined works today with zero additional effort and has no drawbacks over any other potential method. Why the opposition?

[Noisycricket]

I might suggest something that is too hard to do, not knowing that is was so tough. We all do that from time to time. Ignorance is the root of all conflict some do say.

 

But the reality is I would never want anyone to do anything over and above what they want to do.

 

But i don't understand, I thought the updater simply calculated the size of a particular file and if it was different from the one on a server, simply re-downloaded that file and overwrote it

[greebo]

But i don't understand, I thought the updater simply calculated the size of a particular file and if it was different from the one on a server, simply re-downloaded that file and overwrote it

It will do so for the PK4 files, yes.

 

If users push additional files into their darkmod folder (new PK4s or subdirectories), the updater will leave those alone.

 

So, users have two possibilities to mess with the main mod, if they really wish to do so (which is rather adventurous):

 

- Copy a new PK4 to the main mod folder, and make sure its name sorts after the tdm_*.pk4 files. The new PK4 will override TDM resources.

- Create actual folders below the darkmod/ folder, as "real" folders will override the ones contained in the PK4.

[Noisycricket]

Good to know, thank you and good to hear theres a fairly intuitive way of enjoying custom files

 

That is sort of how the mod system works for Stalker, instead of replacing the entire contents of the folder into a copy of the folder, you just place a particular file into a folder of the same name and only the data in that particular file would supersede the original data.

 

Now that we know this, is there any other means of harm in offering my alt walk to the community?

[Noisycricket]

@ Animators

 

Here is a good tutorial for walk_cycles. There is a good demonstration of animating the weight of the body as it reacts to the foot being planted in the video at the bottom of the page.

[greebo]

Here is a good tutorial for walk_cycles. There is a good demonstration of animating the weight of the body as it reacts to the foot being planted in the video at the bottom of the page.

Erm, link?

[Springheel]

Now that we know this, is there any other means of harm in offering my alt walk to the community?

 

Why are you so eager to release an alternate walk by itself? It seems like a pretty trivial thing to release as an update, especially since all it does is modify a single animation slightly. It's not like anything is wrong with the current walk and it needs to be fixed immediately.

[SneaksieDave]

Can it instead be adapted for females? Zombies? Things we need currently.

[Tels]

Erm... what is a zip file if not compressed?

 

Yes, PK4s are just renamed ZIP files and there are relatively easy ways to replace files within them, but:

 

1. You can be sure that someone will screw it up somehow.

2. Even if they don't, next time they run tdm_update, boom! Changes gone. "Fucking TDM updater overwrote my changes! FUK U NOOBS"

 

Yeah. Welcome to tech support.

 

Springheel has the right approach here. Never encourage people to modify official files, because they'll definitely fuck it up and blame it on us. Instead:

 

- Assets which match the spirit and quality of TDM's internal assets should be incorporated into future updates, with the permission of their authors.

- Anything not falling into the above category can be shipped in an add-on PK4, named in a way that makes it obvious that it's a non-official and unsupported add-on (preferably including the name of the author), which people can simply drop into their darkmod directory. Remember that alphabetically-later PK4s override alphabetically-earlier ones.

 

Agreed.

 

For example, if your walk cycle wasn't included in TDM but you wanted to release it anyway, you might put the modified files into "z_noisycricket_alternate_walk_cycle.pk4" NB The team needs to discuss the recommended naming convention, but here's my reasoning for this one: The 'z_' prefix is to indicate that it's non-official, and also to make sure it overrides standard TDM assets. Then we have an author name (for easy identification and avoiding naming clashes) and an add-on pack name (so you know what it's for).

 

Note that it must be made clear that anyone using unofficial add-ons is doing so at their own risk, and we can't be held responsible if a future TDM update breaks an add-on.

 

It's probably better all round if stuff made by team members is evaluated for inclusion in TDM first, before it's released as an add-on.

 

Agreed, too. But I wouldn't use "z", but "x", also, it might be better to switch the add-on name and the author, as authors have more freedom over the addon name than their nick. If the author comes first, addons from "aalglatt" will always be loaded after addons from "ziegeldach", which is soemtimes not what you want (e.g. when Mr. Aalglatt makes a mod for something from Mr. Ziegeldach

 

We could have sort-of "official addons", e.g. things that were sanity tested by us a little bit.

[Noisycricket]

@ All concerned:

 

Hmmm, this brings up a lot of questions that i think haven't been pondered yet.

 

But lets plow through this as some things really need to be decided eventually and im going to back up just a tad just to make sure were all on the same page.

 

I wanted to release my walk animation, i think it is very realistic and I spent a lot of time on it. The walk animation is possibly the most oft seen animation in the game or a very close second to the idle animation. To me, it is something i would not want to go back on now that i've used it or a version of it for so long. I want to release this to the public for the same reason anyone wants to release a mod. I wanted to release it sooner rather than later because so many people will have already played through all of the missions.

 

So the plan was, to post a thread with a friendly message in the forums that said, "Hey, i made an animation i think some people will like, here the link if you want to try it and heres how to install it."

 

As far as testing it before releasing it, i think it is completely unnecessary. The md5anim files are simply 99% vertex locations. Furthermore, like all mods, they are optional and can be taken back out.

 

 

As far as allowing the team to evaluate it before release, this brings up a completely different issue. What if you don't like it? Its a matter of opinion. What if 67% of the team doesn't like something made by another member, but the other member wants to give his work away to those that do want it, or want to try it and see if they want it?. Should being a "member" or "contributor" to TDM mean your ability to offer mods to other is limited to what some other people on the team? This doesn't sound like a very healthy or friendly, model and it really goes against the spirit of modding, which is simply making or getting what YOU want.

[Springheel]

I took a look at the walk cycle again. It's pretty good, but there is a discernable 'pop' in the knees. I think it happens just as the foot fully hits the ground (also the pauldrons don't seem to move, as greebo mentioned).

 

With that small fix, I think the walk cycle would be fine to include in the next update. I don't think the current walk needs replacing, but both could be included for more variety.

 

What if 67% of the team doesn't like something made by another member, but the other member wants to give his work away to those that do want it, or want to try it and see if they want it?. Should being a "member" or "contributor" to TDM mean your ability to offer mods to other is limited to what some other people on the team?

 

Anyone can release something unofficially, but the team would have to agree on what gets included in official releases.

[SneaksieDave]

My take: I don't think offering something of your own in an unofficial sense should be a problem. Hell it's what we did this for. Perhaps a disclaimer about such a thing is appropriate, the way Dromed authors say "this level is not created or supported by Eidos Interactive."

 

Inclusion in the mod is a completely different subject which requires team consensus.

[Noisycricket]

Yes, i meant to release it as unofficial.

 

Strange about the popping, i specifically fixed that, which makes me wonder if that is an older file. I should check it out before i offer it up, but have no time....grrr

[Crispy]

@Tels: Agreed, your modifications are sensible. On reflection, it could be nice to use double-underscores to separate title and author names as well, just for clarity. So NC's walk cycle mod would be named something like: x__alternate_walk_cycle__noisycricket.pk4

 

Should we post official guidelines on making these kinds of mods somewhere?

 

I also agree with SH and Sneaksie and have nothing more to say there.

[greebo]

Can somebody put up a testmap with the two cycles walking side-by-side? One builder guard using the standard anim, and one lesser builder guard using the alternate walk cycle? This makes it very easy to compare these two.

[squill]

Noisycricket, i don't get the fuzz about releasing your walkcycle. You keep pushingthe team about releasing your work while you also admit it's still not final and you have little time to work on it.

 

I've also spend a lot of time on the current walkcycle which i recreated a couple of times from scratch over the past few years. The difference is not that great and most common players won't even notice the difference. I also told you before you could make this "alternate" walkcycle stand out by making it more unique(a walk with character etc.) which would add more value to the mod than just offering more of the same which i think a lot of people will overlook.

 

i understand you want people yo see your work, but i think it's best to spend your energy on new animations for the next release.

[SneaksieDave]

Zombies and women if at all possible.

[Noisycricket]

I havn't pushed the team to release the walk cycle. I've hinted that its available for those that might want it as bad as I want a replacement walk-cycle. To contribute. Perhaps i've been spending so much time in Maya I notice those tiny differences more than others. My motivation for wanting to release the walk cycle has more to do with TDM marketing and player immersion. Also, when I hear that a mod is out for a game just days after release, i get exited myself.

 

Before i release it, I need time to make sure I even posted the right walk_cycle.

 

It doesn't really matter to me that my walk cycle is released in the main mod or is replaced, if the team likes it, it will eventually make its way in. I just want it available for the public to use if they want.

[Noisycricket]

Woops, heres the link to the walk cycle tutorial i mentioned. I should put this stuff all in one place sometime.

 

 

http://brendanbody.blogspot.com/2008/12/walk-cycle.html

[Tels]

@Tels: Agreed, your modifications are sensible. On reflection, it could be nice to use double-underscores to separate title and author names as well, just for clarity. So NC's walk cycle mod would be named something like: x__alternate_walk_cycle__noisycricket.pk4

 

Should we post official guidelines on making these kinds of mods somewhere?

 

Yep, sounds sensible. Also, if I ever find time (damn you, new apartment! I wanted to create a very small mini-addon so we can toy around with it and test things, and make an add-on section on the webpage. Once it is there, we can accept add-ons on our terms. (e.g. reject the obviously broken stuff, the space aliens? etc=