Professor Paul1290

Many missions have toilets. Many missions have toilets that you can open up so you can crawl inside them. Many missions have guards in close proximity to such spacious toilets. You probably know where this is going.

Come to think of it, I have noticed this for a while as well. Running while rope climbing makes you climb rope pretty darn fast. To be fair, there are people in real life who can climb rope pretty damn fast. I'm not sure if it's entirely believable for our thief though. (I know he's somewhat athletic but I'm not sure he's THAT athletic) On the other hand, so far I haven't found it to be too jarring to immersion.

I don't want to sound too callous, but I really can't help but see attempting to better "evoke the mood" as a pit of diminishing returns that may not be worth throwing that much more time at. I don't feel like some people's objections to the aesthetics can be addressed in a way that would be an effective use of time. I don't see how this wouldn't just result in endless back and forth tweaking that would just be a sink for time that would have been better spent on other things. If you think this sounds like a sore spot for me then that wouldn't be far off the mark. TDM isn't the only project where I've seen people complain about such nebulous things as "atmosphere" or "mood" and offer very little usable feedback that could be used to remedy the problem. I have NEVER seen a situation where the kind of specific tastes that some of Thief fanbase seems to show (again, the kind that are very picky but don't generate much usable feedback) were addressed in a way that was worth the time or money spent, and until I see one I don't think I can see putting that much more into aesthetics as a worthwhile endeavor. Note that my opinion does not represent that of the TDM team or even the majority of the TDM fanbase, and they may have very different views on the matter. Anyway, that is my opinion.

Sadly my current hardware isn't up to the task of running TDM and recording at the same time very well. On the other hand, a few things have happened lately that might allow me to upgrade much sooner than I expected, though that depends on what happens in the next month or two. Here's hoping I guess.

The creator was already working for Bohemia Interactive before the mod was released and was working on it as an experimental side-project. I played DayZ a lot after it was released though I haven't touched it again in a while. Part of it is that I probably played it so much that I got tired of it pretty quickly. The other part of it is that whenever I start up ArmA 2 nowadays I usually get too caught up playing ACE (a realism mod) with United Operations or some other group to even bother starting it up. On the other hand I can definitely see the appeal if your gaming diet is very deficient in any kind of large scale, emergent, and unscripted gameplay experiences. Of course, nowadays that category includes the majority. As far as buying ArmA 2, I'm not sure if I would buy ArmA 2 specifically for DayZ. On the other hand, that allow you the ArmA 2 vanilla game as well which is nice if you are into tactical shooters or military simulation. It would also allow you to play a ton of other mods like Advanced Combat Environment (ACE), Project Reality ArmA 2, several RPG mods, and plenty of other types of mods as well. ArmA 2 also has a large selection of community made maps and missions that range from the highly realistic to the downright silly, so there's a lot of stuff to play around with there as well. Have you ever seen a bunch of guys strap machine guns to goats and open fire at each other across a field? It's rather amusing and quite fun, especially when you're a bit drunk. A couple reasons to buy ArmA 2: The hardcore and tactical: The... what the heck?:

I'm starting to think that what might help a lot is to eventually have some kind of simultaneous effort to get the word out. Just looking over the site and what videos are available, it almost seems like the needed material is already available, but it never got presented very well. Most of TDM's exposure to the outside world has been very slow and very spread out. I don't feel like TDM got the real "release" that a lot of other mods have had. There is bits and pieces of advertising here and there, but most have been presented on their own. It would probably be very far off and longer term, but I don't think it would hurt to start talking about such a thing. Perhaps we could eventually start to see a certain date being appropriate (maybe after an update or campaign release) for a more organized "release date" of sorts.

EA does get to decide which digital distribution services can carry their games. It took quite a while to before EA allowed GOG to carry their games. GOG has had difficulties convincing publishers to let them carry their games because they insist on staying DRM free. GamersGate likes to try (unsuccessfully) to stay DRM-free, but in a lot of cases publishers force them to allow a third-party DRM for certain games before they allow it to be sold there. This ruling may make getting more publishers and developers to allow for DRM-free distribution even more difficult than it already is. I really hope it doesn't, but it could happen. Those are the kinds of systems I'm really really hoping won't be harmed by this change.

That doesn't make much sense. Big publishers and digital distribution services like already use some form of DRM to keep track of who a copy belongs to and would only need to allow users to sell and transfer copies between accounts to comply with this ruling. Unless the ruling has some pretty unusual requirements mentioned in there somewhere it wouldn't cost them much more than they are already spending. Heck, this might actually hurt the "little guys" more than the big publishers. This could potentially hurt digital distibution services that are DRM-free (services like GOG and certain developers who choose to sell digital copies directly through their own sites). These services cannot ensure single ownership as well as Steam because they've chosen to not use DRM, and thus have more limited control over the digital copies they sell once they've been downloaded by the user. Ironically, this could hurt services that try to give power back to the consumer. You also seem to ignore that there are many games released nowadays that would not be practical with purely physical distribution. These developers may be forced into using services like Steam rather than more consumer-friendly methods because they wouldn't have enough control over sold copies to reasonably ensure single ownership otherwise.

You're missing the point. The problem isn't necessarily Steam. Steam already has the means to assure single ownership because of their DRM, meaning all they would need to do is add the ability to transfer games between accounts. The problem could be for stuff that doesn't work like Steam. How do indie developers who sell digital copies directly to their customers or DRM-free digital distribution sites like GOG.com assure single ownership for this ruling to work as intended? The thing is, digital distribution copies of games do not naturally ensure single ownership the way physical copies do, that's something that would need to be enforced by other means if it is to be enforced at all. DRM-free digital distribution in some ways gives up the means to do this, and may run into problems with this ruling because of that.

Pretty much this. While I can understand that people would want to re-sell used games make digital copies behave the way physical copies do in general, the fact is that they aren't physical copies and it isn't easy make them behave that way. While this ruling may have good intentions, good intentions don't always lead to good results. I can easily see some pretty negative reprecussions coming out of this.

I guess bundling popular and well liked FMs with the mod right off the bat can help with this (which as I understand it is already starting to be done). I think those looking for an official campaign are looking more for a set of FMs to introduce them to the mod. I think it would help if the mod came with a campaign of some kind as something we would want the player to see first, even if it's not an "official campaign" or anything like that. If there is a very urgent pressing need for TDM to have an "official" set of missions or a story, I don't see much harm in picking out some well-liked mission series, calling them "official", and bundling them with the mod (with permission from the FM authors of course). If some players want a set of characters to relate to or use then the current collection of FMs has at least a couple of those that could be used in such a way.

I do question the usefulness of looking at it with a graph like this though. Given numbers like these and the nature of what they're counting, I'm not sure any kind of curve or trend here would have much meaning. If there was a way to track track "player count" or "missions played", those would be much more meaningful to present as a line graph, if that makes any sense.

I was about to mention that. Drawing palm outward isn't uncommon nowadays, though it's usually with a modern compound bow and release aid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OTAw7d3SCU (as seen at 1:10) Whether that would be correct in this case is something else though. I don't think "Garrett" (if he is Garrett in the video) using a release aid here and I don't think it looks quite right here. It's possible that they saw some modern archers doing this and are applying it without the appropriate context.

I can definitely see why that would be to some degree. TakeDown had a rather messed up Kickstarter to begin with, but it had more of an image as an urban CQB style tactical shooter which is something that ArmA doesn't do much of at all. Ground Branch, at least from what has been shown so far, seems to overlap more with what ArmA already does. More room to room "kill house" style combat might remedy this at least somewhat.

I do find it rather jarring that a lot of gamers can't distinguish a true tactical shooter from any other shooter, but I suppose it is to be expected since there hasn't been a big, very visible, mainstream release of one in a long time. It is rather difficult to really convey the idea of a tactical shooter to someone who has never had a good one before. It's especially frustrating when you are trying to explain it to someone who hasn't had the chance to experience the sort of gameplay you're trying to explain, and firmly believes that such gameplay simply doesn't work despite the fact that you've had it and have had fun with it for a long time. It's like trying to explain Thief to someone who's never played such a game. "First person? Stealth doesn't work well in first person. You can't see whether you are actually in hiding or not. I don't see how first-person perspective would work in a stealth game." Of course, there are ways around this. Video often helps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vW1tq4os9uw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz4Ewsnyscg

I just wanted to say thanks a lot for this. This adds something I kind of always wanted in TDM and in more stealth games in general.

That is a very good point. Escaping from AI does become rather trivial when you are able to climb everywhere. I question how big of a problem this would be in practice however. The AI are capable of ranged attacks, as archers can shoot arrows while other guards can throw rocks. Also, escaping AI is different from being able to ignore them. So far from what I've seen in FMs with a lot of climbables they do sometimes make escaping from the AI relatively easy, but most items of value tend to be in places the AI can reach so you're forced to confront them eventually anyway. We don't really have an easily reusable long distance way of knocking out guards (gas arrows are expensive and usually very limited), and the best option of neutralizing guards from a safe spot are broadheads, which are a bit too easy anyway if you choose to go that route. I do agree that Rope Arrows are the better climbable in most cases though. They're more obvious, consistent, better understood by most players, and they have an extra element interactivity compared to vines or pipes. About the only downside I can think of is that the player may misplace or misuse them, but you could provide them during the mission if they are absolutely needed. I also think that having some kind of "standard" would be nice, as it's the inconstency of this that can be jarring. There are a couple FMs that rely on some of these being climbable that are likely to confuse a lot of new players. I know there is at least one FM that requires climbing a chain, though I can't remember which one it was. As for the "sometimes" option, that's probably poor choice of words on my part as I didn't really mean sometimes climbable within an FM. I probably should have called it "other (explain)". The pipe from "In Remembrance of Him" was actually what I was thinking of when I started the topic. That actually got me stuck for a while. Though I do find it interesting that you would find it disappointing if one of these were climbable but they didn't go anywhere. I was thinking that these could be used as decoration and could be made always climbable for the sake of consistency, but that would result in a lot of climbable vines that don't go anywhere. This feels sort of like the opposite of the above, and I kind of agree. I feel this does kind of go back to the inconsistency that makes this somewhat confusing. If there were no such thing as climbable chains this scenario wouldn't be an issue at all, but the fact that there are means a chain that would be very useful if climbable but isn't could be rather jarring.

This is something that has sort of bugged me for quite some time. Do you guys expect vines, pipes, or chains to be climbable before you actually get to try them? Do you always at least try to climb them if you see them or are their only certain circumstances where you would? If you don't, have you ever gotten stuck in an FM because due to not considering climbing these things an option? Do you believe any of these should always be climbable for consistency? Personally, I often at least try to climb these objects if they are available.

That would be awesome. I'd love to see more missions feature these kinds of patrols (and if I can ever get anything done I'd love to give this a try this as well). On somewhat of a side note, an amusing side-effect of this is that stuffing unconscious victims into latrines is no longer a safe method of concealing them.

I just LOVE the patrols in this mission! I've probably said this before, but I very much enjoy gameplay that rewards methods and tactics rather than memorization, and I feel that this mission does that. The more complicated patrols with random elements encourage you to stay cautious and prepare for the unexpected rather than let yourself fall into a sense of security once you've figured out how the AI patrol. After playing this mission I really wish more FMs worked this way. This felt "right" to me in so many ways. Congrats!

I don't think they need to hurry anything up and "release" it necessarily. Anyone who pre-orders the game can play it so it's already "out" in that sense and they're not really depriving anyone of anything by not "releasing" it. I might be kind of biased since a lot of my favorite games and mods have taken much longer than even three years Overgrowth has spent so far be released and turned out fine, but Overgrowth doesn't strike me as taking too long.

Indeed, it isn't really "that bad" yet. I think this is more about keeping it from getting "that bad". I suppose in a way it is reassuring that there are mods that don't get as much activity as TDM does and are still "healthy", and compared to them we would seem rather whiny. Still, it doesn't hurt to have this discussion.

Even if it isn't a high quality promo trailer or anything like that, I still think publicity is quite problem right now. If you're a curious outsider who out of curiosity looks up mods like Cry of Fear or The Nameless Mod then you get a pretty clear idea of what the mod is about and what to expect if you decide to download and play it. This still isn't quite the case with TDM right now, though it has been getting better. The visibility of TDM still seems really low when compared to other mods of similar size. On a related note, perhaps this video should be put on the front page somewhere as it's the closest thing to a recent up-to-date trailer right now: (I couldn't easily spot this when searching "The Dark Mod" and had to find Springheel's youtube account to easily find it..)

I just want to say that I'm happy with what has come out of this mod and I've played, and in some cases re-played, every FM that has been released so far. I know I've said this before, but I really feel this mod has more publicity problems then problems with the mod itself. I just feel it doesn't have very much exposure for a mod its size and scope. I don't know if there already was a push to make the mod known to more people a long time ago and there hasn't been much of an attempt since then, or if whatever is put out just doesn't spread as much for whatever reason. I see things like Cry of Fear (Half-Life 1) and The Nameless Mod (Deus Ex), and they seem to do more to spread the word than TDM, or at least it appears that way. That leads me think that something more can be done, though I'm not entirely sure what. On a related note, and I'm kind of afraid to even mention this, but I have been messing around with and learning how to use DarkRadiant lately. I don't know if I'll get a decent FM out eventually, but I think I'll give it a try when I get the chance.

Someone already mentioned the DCS games. There's also Third Wire's "Strike Fighter" series: http://www.thirdwire.com/index.htm