Best upgrade for my machine?

[Baddcog]

First my config.

 

intel 6600 2,4 dual core quad

nvidia 8600 gts 512 mb

4 gigs ddr dual channel (ddr2 or 3, I'd have to look) (3 gigs useable) (8 possible)

xtreme gamer audio (onboard is realtek)

Vista home 32 bit (supposedly I could request a 64 bit disc by mail)

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The issue.

 

Had this machine for almost 2 years now, wouldn't mind upgrading a little bit. I have a 24" monitor and I think it taxes my gpu a bit. Most TDM missions I sit at 20 fps with vsynch on. Not bad as it's a steady 20 unless in a big unoptimized space where it'll drop below (vsynch off its 18-25 kindof jumpy/laggy so locked at 20 is best (or 30 if really optimized spots).

 

Still, most games at fairly high detail I'm kindof locked at the lower end of performance, I'd love to see a steady 30 fps all the time.

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What I use it for:

 

Gaming, TF2 online, The Dark Mod, 3dsMax (want to keep, under wine maybe), Photoshop (could live with gimp), Dark Radiant and Steam, Internet, internet radio.

 

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My choices.

 

Looking at around $150.

 

So I could get a newer better 1 gig gpu. Never had an ATI, always Nvidia. OK with switching if an ATI would be better.

But I'm already limited to 3 gigs because of 32 bit OS, - 512 for the card. a 1 gig card would drop my ram useage by another 512 mb.

 

So I could get a W7 upgrade for $120. But I'm kindof pissed at MS for the whole vista crap anyway. But would get better performance and ram usage with W7 64 bit.

 

Kbuntu is another OS choice, I tried it a bit and it seemed fairly cool. Could run most of my stuff under it I think and would have the 64 bit option. Free so that's good. However I tried before and it renders my sound card useless, which basically costs me $100 as that card is no longer used. Onboard sound is probably fine.

I just came to the realization that getting the drivers to work is above my ability and never could find the answers I needed. So if I go this route I'd probably just pull the card.

Also, internet on Kbuntu was VERY slow, on my cable it was like being at 56k. Never looked into improving that much.

 

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So I think I'd get performance either way, by using an OS that isn't a hog like Vista is (kbunutu might be better than W7?) and with 64 I get all my ram (probably wont help with monitor)

 

I'd probably get better fps with new card.

 

W7 and a card would be easy, no uninstal reinstal of OS. But can only afford 1.

 

Kbunutu would require a full back up, instal, driver search but would also allow me to purchase a card and get all my ram useage. I do dig the open source thing, just not really much of a comp. whiz so having to run command lines to egt stuff to work is usually an exercise in frustration. I don't know anyone personally anywhere close that can help.

 

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So what do you think I should do?

[Mortem Desino]

Does your Motherboard support Dual-channel RAM? I've got 4 TRUE gigs working in 32-bit XP because my mobo set 2GB+2GB up in dual-channel mode.

 

If you want game performance: I would definitely opt for a Graphics card with a nice fast processor over VRAM (given than System RAM is still fairly cheap) unless you're brave enough to overclock.

[Noisycricket]

I went back and forth between Vista 32 and 64 bit from having it on my laptop. I never noticed any difference and ran into a lot of troubles from using not-so-mature 64 bit drivers. I'd guess a graphics card would help the most, but thats just a guess

 

btw: are you using 3 megs to solve issues with the 4 megs + X-fi? If so, give this technique a try, it solved my x-fi problems.

 

You dont need to throttle down to 3 gigs, just do so to right under 4 gigs.

 

If 4 gigs is actually 4096 megs, just dial down your ram like this:

 

Go to start and run and type msconfig and choose "OK"

 

Choose "boot" and then "advanced options"

 

check "maximum memory" and there type in something to bring you just under 4 gigs. So 4096 = 4 gigs so try 3990.

 

That will keep almost all of your ram, and only burn 106k. pretty and easy, not much of a hit. and you can change it back anytime you like with no modification to the rest of your operating system or hardware. This is called "Burning a bit of ram"

 

http://forums.creati...Fix/td-p/539004

 

EDIT: Oh, your probably using that because its 32 bit......I forgot about that. Oh well....

[Baddcog]

Yeah, I've got 4 gigs dual channel. But windows 32 bit will only recognize 3, and that includes gpu ram. So I only get to use 2.5 really. + 512 on my gpu.

I don't know how you get a ture 4 gigs, even with dual channel. Everything I've heard and my system tells me I only have 3. It's windows 32 bit that's the problem there.

 

So 64 bit gets all of my ram, plus possible 4 gigs more (like you said, that's cheap enough these days). But I don't think that's going to help push my monitor anyway. But I wouldn't be suprised if just running Vista lowers entire system performance.

 

I also am running classic mode so I don't have aero lag.

[Serpentine]

I'd just hit a newer gfx card, ATI wins hands down on bang for buck, you should be able to get quite a decent card with that.

 

As for OS, might as well head to W7 x64.

 

I didnt really read about the soundcard issues, im running Server 08 with the same card, it had a few issues but I grabbed the PAX drivers, didnt expect them to actually help, but they installed and the card is 100% perfect now, no idea why, but there were millions of issues on the official driver.

 

If your ram is decent, you can get some hefty overclocks out of that CPU without much heat/effort, well worth an afternoon tinkering about.

[Baddcog]

I do have overclocking tools for the cpu, but don't know much about it and deffinetely don't want to damage it. I have corsair ram with cool heatsinks , so yeah I probably could push it some. And a 900 case so it stays nice and cool.

 

The GPU I have was OC'ed stock, I actually underclocked it so it would stop crashing TF2.

 

Server '08 is linux I take it. I don't know what drivers I found, there were no officially supported linux drivers (or they were official but not supported), but it required command line stuff that confused the hell out of me.

[Serpentine]

Server '08 is linux I take it. I don't know what drivers I found, there were no officially supported linux drivers (or they were official but not supported), but it required command line stuff that confused the hell out of me.

 

Nah, was talking about Windows Server, however, the card is supported under ALSA and OSS (OSS support is a bit iffy, but for many it works perfectly).

 

Its quite strange that they 'opened' the driver, but the driver is all confidential and propriatary, uses a lot of magic numbers etc, if only people would rather release documentation and datasheets.

[Unstoppable]

I would upgrade the video card but make sure you got a beefy power supply with at least 4 +12v rails. Otherwise you will run into trouble and some of your components might be fried.

 

 

 

Do not get anything less than a 9800GT or GTX or you can opt for an ATI 4870. I recommend the Sapphire one which is only available on Ebay and less than 100$. I got one and it's good. The only downside is that it's big and really loud.

 

So in the ATI control panel you can save configurations. I put the processor all the way down when I'm doing word processing like now. When I game i put it back to default. It gets loud cause of the fan.

 

Make sure you got a power supply with 4 +12v rails if you go with the ATI card. It requires a lot of juice as do all your other components. Otherwise do not upgrade to the 4870. 4 +12v is a definite requirement to make sure your stuff does not crash.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Unstoppable

[Baddcog]

I've got an Antec PS 500 W with 4+12 rails (have to check but pretty sure). I probably will get that card. Guess my mobo is crossfire ready but I never thought I'd use it, should've got ati back then I guess, then at least my old card wouldn't end up on a shelf (Not SLI compatible). Oh well.

 

Actually, I guess the 4890 is the card I was eyeing at newegg.

 

Messed around with OCing my Mobo last night and today. Boosted it from 2.7 to 3 and it's stable. Can't say I notice performacne changed much. Any higher and it was crashing.

[Serpentine]

I would upgrade the video card but make sure you got a beefy power supply with at least 4 +12v rails. Otherwise you will run into trouble and some of your components might be fried.

 

Do not get anything less than a 9800GT or GTX or you can opt for an ATI 4870. I recommend the Sapphire one which is only available on Ebay and less than 100$. I got one and it's good. The only downside is that it's big and really loud.

 

The ampage on the 12V rail/s is what matters most, its not the number of rails - in fact most powersupplies that offer multiple rails are quite bad, ideally you would always want a single rail with insane ampage, eliminating virtual rails etc. Just some food for thought... or something.

 

As for branding, ATi encourage people to use the reference design, though some will change the reference cooler, the boards 95% of the time are exactly the same as other brands (they do change bios stuff however, dropping voltage sometimes if they think its excessive, changing fanspeeds for different coolers, but nothing hectic), if you want a quieter card I would suggest looking for one with a large radial cooler rather than the long blower fan which Sapphire etc come with as they use reference boards + coolers on their non-speciality cards.

[Unstoppable]

You're right I did forget to mention the amps. I have this one which all the 4 +12v rails have 20 amps. This is an excellent power supply plus you get 3 years of warranty.

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817379006

 

Just make sure your 500 W power supply is up for the task of running everything. Otherwise do not get the 4870 it demands a strong powersupply.

 

Use this calculator.

http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine

 

You should be ok because I am only using like 362 w according to that calculator. My system is

 

1HDD 7200 rpm

1 ATI 4870 512mb ddr 3

4 sticks ddr 2 ram (3GB)

2 dvd drives (1 burner)

1 pci soundblaster card

1 high end motherboard

3 120mm case fans (2 led)

1 80mm case fan

1 lcd front display

1 Q6600 Intel processor

mouse/keyboard

3 usb devices in total (one of them being the mouse)

 

That's about it I believe and came to 362 w which is plenty of room for me to add more stuff. You should be fine with your 500w.

 

One last thing about the Zalman, it has a fail safe. If it senses any type of electrical current that is not normal it shuts itself off to prevent damage to your computer.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Unstoppable

[Baddcog]

ok, I found W7 pro 64bit for $50, couldn't pass that up. Legit copy all verified by MS. I know where to get a few more if anyone needs an upgrade. Lost of homes left, but only around 10 Pros last time I looked. (It's a guy that owns a comp shop with his dad, promo deal to support a TF2 server I play on a bit, they get most of the cash for donation)

 

So it went pretty smooth. Installed onto spare disc just to check it was legit before backups or anything. Then plugged in my main VIsta disc and 7 boots up and can read everything. So I backed up what I needed, and tried to instal over vista, for some reason it was 'incompatible' so I had to do a clean instal. Luckily I had partitiooned well. Had 50 gigs for vista on one partition, all games/programs and artwork on the second partition so I only had to reformat and instal W7 where Vista and a few smal scraps and a messy desktop were.

 

Most everything is working cleanly, had to reinstal Max (probably a 64 bit thing as I was on 32), Photoshop doesn't glitch out now when I load a dds (damn vista crap anyway).

 

Had to uninistal 32 bit Darkloader and DL 64 bit. Still, I try and load my map, it gets halfway through the entities and fails. Don't know what that issue is yet.

 

Now able to use all of my Ram, so I think that's helping already. Vista and 7 both take about a gig for OS, so now I have 3 to use instead of 2.

 

I'm gonna drop another 4 gigs dual channel in, I believe I'm just gonna bite the bullet and go for the 5770 ATI card. Only $50 more than a 4770 (or whatever) and I figure that'll last me at least another 2 years. So all together about $300 and I'm done upgrading this machine, it'll be maxed other than a second crossfire card (which can only run a 4x anyway).

[Baddcog]

ended up with win7 64bit pro. only issue so far is that I have to run DR 32bit, I cannot get 64bit to run without manually turning off aero everytime. No big deal really.

 

All my programs seem to work fine in 64bit, unlike issues with everything in 32 bit vista. (haven't got T2 working yet)

 

This just came in, will instal tonight. Should be a major boost over my 8600gts.

I 'accidentaly' ended up with the black box OC version. Didn't realize there were two versions and it didn't say OC, guess I missed what black box meant (if I even saw that). Oh well, only $13 more as non-black box charged shipping.

http://www.newegg.co...N82E16814150454

and I got a $45 320 gb hd, was running out of space.

 

decided to hold off on more ram, My performance gadget never says I'm using the full 4 gigs anyway and my gpu is gonna boost me up more too.

 

That's it for the year (probably a few years).

[Serpentine]

You can make a shortcut to applications that have aero issues and then disable aero on the shortcut properties, makes life easier!

[Baddcog]

Yeah I know, but there are issues with the 64 bit dr.

 

32 bit compatibility> disable aero/disable desktop works

64 bit compatibility> disable aero/disable desktop works

(as in I have the choices available in both DR versions)

 

32 bit >run in compatibility mode> XP -works

64 bit >run in compatibility mode> Vista - doesn't work

the issue is that 64 bit dr doesn't have xp compatibility as a choice, and that's the deciding factor on whether or not the 2d windows draw.

They will draw after I click on them, but are slow afterwards. 3d view never draws.

[Baddcog]

Got it installed, big card, had to clean up/redo some wiring.

 

Nice so far though, did a quick ingame check in Living_expenses. Was getting about 20-25 before which has always been average for me with this comp in DarkMod. Now it's pegged at 60 with or without vsynch. Kindof makes me wonder if vsynch was still on after restart but didn't think to check, I'm tired.

And that's under clocked Was a factory OC so I dropped it down close to the non-oc vers (1050 ram speed instead of 1125, 650 cpu clock instead of 755).

 

This card has kindof a high pitch hum when the fan cranks though, a bit annoying but I'll probably get used to it. Got a free Dirt2 with it so that'll be cool, always liked McCrea rally series, this one's got Direct X 11 stuff so it should be sweet.

[Tels]

Got it installed, big card, had to clean up/redo some wiring.

 

Nice so far though, did a quick ingame check in Living_expenses. Was getting about 20-25 before which has always been average for me with this comp in DarkMod. Now it's pegged at 60 with or without vsynch. Kindof makes me wonder if vsynch was still on after restart but didn't think to check, I'm tired.

And that's under clocked Was a factory OC so I dropped it down close to the non-oc vers (1050 ram speed instead of 1125, 650 cpu clock instead of 755).

 

This card has kindof a high pitch hum when the fan cranks though, a bit annoying but I'll probably get used to it. Got a free Dirt2 with it so that'll be cool, always liked McCrea rally series, this one's got Direct X 11 stuff so it should be sweet.

 

And you said:

 

"Should be a major boost over my 8600gts."

 

No imagine what my 9800 GT is doing on that dual-core machine here

 

Most interesting to me was that SL (a map where we had performance problems) on my 8-core, 16 GB RAM machine did run at 60 FPS no matter what I did, and that was with two Windows XP virtualboxes and two 100% CPU processes (thrashing cache) in the background. The machine also has a rather low Geforce NVS 290 (benchmarks indicate it is about factor 6 or so slower than my Geforce 9800 GT).

[7upMan]

Do you guys have AA enabled, and if so, which one (MS-AA or SS-AA)? With 4xSS-AA my machine goes down to 20 fps quickly, if there's more than one light source. I have disabled the power save mode, so that nothing hampers with my CPU speed.

[Baddcog]

I did turn on AA now that I've got a new card. But with my 8600gts it deffinately had a major impact on my FPS to have it on at all. But I am running native res. 1920x1200. So it's high res but I think gives a better picture than a lower res and AA.

 

Now I have it a 4x aa and 1x tex anistrophy (which I had before but don't know what it means, I'm gonna google it now). Ah, it's just used to sharpen distant pixels, I think in TDM this can be low or turned off in most cases to save performance as you never get really long views, in fact that's somewhat discouraged due to optimizing.

 

I think in earlier discussions about FPS the major issue was AA, just turning it on has probably the largest effect on fps of all the settings. So it's a toss up, a little smoother image or better fps. I never noticed 'jaggies' too much at 1920x1200 in TDM and you never move too fast as a thief, I notice jaggies alot more moving fast in TF2.

 

In my CC control center I'm using 4xAA, I suppose this overrides all game settings as I don't have 'use application settings' checked. With box filter, I need to look into filter types more. Super sample AA mode, AF at 8x (although 4x really looks just as good, I do notice when I drop it to 2x), mip map on quality (little difference).

But this is on ATI's brand new directx 11 second in the line top end card. I expect not too many people have the card yet and alot of people wont have one like this for awhile. It was a pretty big jump for me.