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General sound quality issues


Noisycricket

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I have noticed some problems with overall sound quality. Keep in mind, i searched the forum and saw how complicated the sound propagation stuff is, so im not expecting any sort of quick fix or anything, but i wanted to get these down somewhere so that they can eventually be fixed at least.

___

Quality reduction: My most immediate concern is that when playing a ogg file from Audacity or Media Player, the sound is crisp and detailed, yet when played in the game, some of the detail and crispness. In this case i first noticed this with new player footstep sounds im messing with. The sound volume is reduced, but i assume that is because it might be a non-positional sound since its right below the view port, which means it is subject to the globalFraction setting, reducing its volume to .8. I was trying to capture the minute details of the actual sound, like small grinding noises made from dust particles, but when imported to the game, the footstep sounds muffled. Is this happening with all of the sounds i wonder?

___

3D positioning: Somehow, i'm getting much better sound positioning information in this youtube video than i do from the game.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=hJLEtMaYKOg

 

This Doom3 mod shows that it is possible to have super-accurate positioning (the reverb is also interesting to hear): http://doom3.filefro...DOOM3_MOD;30066

 

Its like the values for the angles in which the sounds are coming from are rounded off or are not updated frequently enough. But also, it seems to jump from 45 degree off from center to 90 degrees while panning around slowly.

__

Lack of Reverb: In that video, as well as doom 3 itself, there also seems to be a lot of reverb which seems to be entirely missing from TDM thus far. Stock Doom3 seems to be more than capable of producing reverb effects. This thread: Setting reverb data in the new sound engine(WIKI) seems to explain that reverbs effects are entirely up to the mapper and if there are no .efx files within the .pk4 then there will be no reverb. Are reverb effects only availble to EAX users?

 

(I should note that im using headphones with EAX enabled and CMSS-3D in "game-mode" with an Auzentech X-fi card)

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I have noticed some problems with overall sound quality. Keep in mind, i searched the forum and saw how complicated the sound propagation stuff is, so im not expecting any sort of quick fix or anything, but i wanted to get these down somewhere so that they can eventually be fixed at least.

___

Quality reduction: My most immediate concern is that when playing a ogg file from Audacity or Media Player, the sound is crisp and detailed, yet when played in the game, some of the detail and crispness. In this case i first noticed this with new player footstep sounds im messing with. The sound volume is reduced, but i assume that is because it might be a non-positional sound since its right below the view port, which means it is subject to the globalFraction setting, reducing its volume to .8. I was trying to capture the minute details of the actual sound, like small grinding noises made from dust particles, but when imported to the game, the footstep sounds muffled. Is this happening with all of the sounds i wonder?

___

3D positioning: Somehow, i'm getting much better sound positioning information in this youtube video than i do from the game.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=hJLEtMaYKOg

 

This Doom3 mod shows that it is possible to have super-accurate positioning (the reverb is also interesting to hear): http://doom3.filefro...DOOM3_MOD;30066

 

Its like the values for the angles in which the sounds are coming from are rounded off or are not updated frequently enough. But also, it seems to jump from 45 degree off from center to 90 degrees while panning around slowly.

__

Lack of Reverb: In that video, as well as doom 3 itself, there also seems to be a lot of reverb which seems to be entirely missing from TDM thus far. Stock Doom3 seems to be more than capable of producing reverb effects. This thread: Setting reverb data in the new sound engine(WIKI) seems to explain that reverbs effects are entirely up to the mapper and if there are no .efx files within the .pk4 then there will be no reverb. Are reverb effects only availble to EAX users?

 

(I should note that im using headphones with EAX enabled and CMSS-3D in "game-mode" with an Ausentech X-fi card)

 

Reverb = EAX users.

I don't have EAX, so everything sounds bad.

Honestly though, thief 1/2 used reverb for both the EAX users and the non EAX users. They simply mixed all their sounds with the same neutral sounding reverb - just so it doesn't sound like complete ass for the non EAX users - and the EAX realtime reverb layered overtop of it.

There is nothing wrong with this approach. Reverb is wonderful to work with, since in this case, layering 2 different reverbs - one pre processed (premixed, part of the orginal sound file), and the other in realtime (EAX), sounds perfectly fine.

If it was up to me, I would remix all the sounds in TDM to have a pre existing reverb trail. I did this with the footsteps.

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Its been so long since i've played Doom 3, i couldn't tell ya. But heres some examples of EAX in action:

 

Good example:

 

General Effect (really shines here):

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

here: http://www.encyclopedia.com/video/T-rXtSfq_Po-xfi-xtreme-music-eax-40.aspx

and here(Halo) http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

 

Occlusion:

 

Reverberation:

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Doom 3 native works great, I just tried it out. Large rooms are especially nice sounding. And its EAX 4.0, yes.

 

I guess you must have a ".efx" file within a .pk4 or mission folder for EAX to work. I only checked the training mission's .pk4 and it doesn't have any and im guessing the others don't either since i thought i played with EAX on while playing the other maps as well.

 

Mappers should be able to print out the mars_city1.efx file (which is a text file) located in pack007.pk4. Then load Doom 3 at the start and go room to room listening to the sounds and noting the values being used for the area. Heres the part for the Mars City Hanger, the start of the first map (for those that have eax)

 

// reverb mars city hangar
reverb "mars city hangar" {
"environment" 26
"environment size" 5.0670
"environment diffusion" 0.8360
"room" -411
"room hf" -685
"room lf" 0
"decay time" 3.3710
"decay hf ratio" 0.6990
"decay lf ratio" 1.0000
"reflections" -55
"reflections delay" 0.0750
"reflections pan" 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000
"reverb" 27
"reverb delay" 0.1000
"reverb pan" 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000
"echo time" 0.0850
"echo depth" 0.0000
"modulation time" 0.2500
"modulation depth" 0.0000
"air absorption hf" -5.0000
"hf reference" 5000.0000
"lf reference" 250.0000
"room rolloff factor" 0.0000
"flags" 63
}

 

Ishtvan's writeup on the wiki:

http://modetwo.net/d...Rooms_%28EAX%29

 

Looks like it can be done, maybe you should go ahead and get the card. :)

 

If i new how to make maps, i'd test this all out on the training map ( or actually Politics, since that would probably serve the greater good at this point in time).

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Ok, so i've been doing a little research and I think i've found just about everything and more you could possibly want to know about what the .efx attributes settings are. I've found two documents that are very thorough and explain what there in term of real world sound wave activity and also exactly what there value range refers to and what a single unit represents.

 

These two sources are:

 

An EAX2 API guide (good explanations of terms/values): http://connect.creat...ing/EAX%202.zip

 

and

 

OpenAl Sdk documentation(most current): http://connect.creat...%20Windows.aspx

 

Also

 

Introduction to EFX (cross platform EAX i guess): http://connect.creat...20to%20EFX.aspx

 

Creative Labs developer area: http://connect.creat...er/default.aspx

 

One things for sure, EAX's interworkings are very sophisticated, yet understandable and its really interesting reading over the explanations on how each attribute mimics the real world.

 

Doom 3 trivia: Its interesting to note that in the EAX2 API guide.pdf, there are 26 "environment" preset types listed. There are about 20 or so individual environment types allotted for the first level of Doom 3. All having the environment type listed as 26 (yet all having a different settings). Various presets are "EAX_ENVIRONMENT_HALLWAY" "EAX_ENVIRNOMENT_ALLEY" EAX_ENVIRONMENT_GENERIC" "EAX_ENVIRONMENT_CAVE", etc, etc. Number 26 is "EAX_ENVIRONMENT_PSYCHOTIC"...strange.

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Ok, so i've been doing a little research and I think i've found just about everything and more you could possibly want to know about what the .efx attributes settings are. I've found two documents that are very thorough and explain what there in term of real world sound wave activity and also exactly what there value range refers to and what a single unit represents.

 

These two sources are:

 

An EAX2 API guide (good explanations of terms/values): http://connect.creat...ing/EAX%202.zip

 

and

 

OpenAl Sdk documentation(most current): http://connect.creat...%20Windows.aspx

 

Also

 

Introduction to EFX (cross platform EAX i guess): http://connect.creat...20to%20EFX.aspx

 

Creative Labs developer area: http://connect.creat...er/default.aspx

 

 

Could you please add these links to our wiki? (and good find!)

 

Doom 3 trivia: Its interesting to note that in the EAX2 API guide.pdf, there are 26 "environment" preset types listed. There are about 20 or so individual environment types allotted for the first level of Doom 3. All having the environment type listed as 26 (yet all having a different settings). Various presets are "EAX_ENVIRONMENT_HALLWAY" "EAX_ENVIRNOMENT_ALLEY" EAX_ENVIRONMENT_GENERIC" "EAX_ENVIRONMENT_CAVE", etc, etc. Number 26 is "EAX_ENVIRONMENT_PSYCHOTIC"...strange.

 

They probably did not understand how EAX works - or that was a stab at Creative which forced them to include EAX (or some other crap I forgot).

 

Anyway, AFAICS the problem with Doom 3 is that EAX settings refer to the info location number, and you cannot easily know/see it from inside DR. (I forgot the details)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Works! Sounds great with tons of potential, but a little unintuitive to set up in the map and other folders. I'd love to see what it could do for a map like Politics, the elevator shaft, caverns and the underwater section, hell, the whole thing.

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Unfortunately, just today i'm entering a busy period and i don't know when i could do that, partly because i've only gotten the walk.map to work, which is one room. I'm getting weird errors trying to set it up in other maps, but i've been guessing at what to do, so thats no surprise. It become "a mission" though, so who knows.:laugh:

 

 

Heres what i did: Placed an info_location entity in part of the map and named it an arbitrary #str_xx1". Then added "#str_xx1" "xx1" to the english.lang file in the Strings folder, including the quotes. Then, added a "walk.efx" text file to the EFXS folder with an reverb data set in it and named that set "xx1" and also made line one of that file say "Version 1", like the originals.

 

I loaded up the same reverb setting that were in Mars City Hanger and wow! Too much for the walk map, but amazing to hear when it finally occurred after playing with it for 1.5 days. I could probably just record some Doom 3 video and load it, lots of room changes. One thing is for sure, the reverb that takes place in the first Thief video is easily done with these effects. Well, easily done once its set up anyway.

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Unfortunately, just today i'm entering a busy period and i don't know when i could do that, partly because i've only gotten the walk.map to work, which is one room. I'm getting weird errors trying to set it up in other maps, but i've been guessing at what to do, so thats no surprise. It become "a mission" though, so who knows.:laugh:

 

 

Heres what i did: Placed an info_location entity in part of the map and named it an arbitrary #str_xx1". Then added "#str_xx1" "xx1" to the english.lang file in the Strings folder, including the quotes. Then, added a "walk.efx" text file to the EFXS folder with an reverb data set in it and named that set "xx1" and also made line one of that file say "Version 1", like the originals.

 

I loaded up the same reverb setting that were in Mars City Hanger and wow! Too much for the walk map, but amazing to hear when it finally occurred after playing with it for 1.5 days. I could probably just record some Doom 3 video and load it, lots of room changes. One thing is for sure, the reverb that takes place in the first Thief video is easily done with these effects. Well, easily done once its set up anyway.

 

Sounds cool! :)

 

Is it possible to do that without the "strings" trick in english.lang? Because that would be tricky if each mapper would need to change that file :(

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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I loaded up the same reverb setting that were in Mars City Hanger and wow! Too much for the walk map, but amazing to hear when it finally occurred after playing with it for 1.5 days. I could probably just record some Doom 3 video and load it, lots of room changes. One thing is for sure, the reverb that takes place in the first Thief video is easily done with these effects. Well, easily done once its set up anyway.

 

:wub:

 

Hot damn.

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I think you have to have it and none of them can be the same, lol...

 

That's a real problem, because we don't want mappers to need to ship a modified english.lang file.

 

Maybe we can provide a few hundred generic location name strings like "Kitchen", "Upper Kitchen", "Lower Kitchen", "Servants Kitchen", "Mill Kitchen", "Cellar" etc etc?

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Sounds like a good idea, although naming the rooms by size makes more sense to me. Maybe a guy such as Dario D. would be willing to put some time into making accurate presets. On his website he wrote: "I'm part of a small crowd that believes that great sound in games/movies can be more powerful than the best visuals". (I pretty much agree).

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