Who makes good missions and other trees

[JulioTheDanks]

The DarkMod team should really get the campaign out. Im having trouble writing a overall review because all the missions are fan based and not the actual teams. Most of these fan missions have a lot of problems. Half the time its not even apparent where I'm supposed to go. They lack the flow that the Thief missions. I find myself enthralled by the environment and plot, just as I did with Thief Gold, but the confusing levels, overwhelming number of AI patrols (to compensate for their limited intelligence) and lack of any sort of dialog make the game rather difficult to play sometimes. I enjoyed in Thief Garret talking to himself. He often gave much needed clues and warnings that allowed me to actually play a entire level through without dying constantly. None of the less for a unfinished product this mod has immense potential. It really just needs some finishing touches such as better AI, Dialog, a set DarkMod campaign and story line. Some minor features I would recommend is when doors open have them push you back rather then just stop when they hit your character. Idle dialog between AI to give it a more authentic and real feeling. A farther range of which you can pick up and interact with objects. The ability to knock out AI once they return to passive mode. Armor should not deflect my arrows, I'd rather it just reduce the damage. A set character treasury, theres not much incentive to collect treasure if i can transfer my ill gotten gains to the next mission for equipment. Conclusions at the end of each mission. Rather then fan out and search, AI cluster together in mobs and corner me, perhaps AI should fan out and search? These are just some immediate observations from what I've played so far. I will continue to play and see what else I can think of or observe.

WHAT I DID LIKE: AI throw rocks, brilliant. Combat is choppy, but much more dynamic and interesting then mindlessly stabbing everything to death or spamming arrows. Doom 3 engine, looks way more appealing. Ability to relight candles and torches, dont know why I would but having more freedom to interact with the environment is always welcome. The undead, compared to Deadly Shadows hammer haunts the new ones are friggin terrifying (a more defined horror aspect of the game would be welcomed). New items are nice! (such as the lamp and telescope) HOW BOUT NEW WEAPONS? Overall you guys have really recaptured and in many respects remade this mods precursors. But it would be great to see you guys put more of a personal touch into it. Make it your own and better. I cant wait to see this mod come to what i am sure will be a finished a polished token of glory. If any of this was helpful let me know. If it was annoying tell me to sod off XD

Edited December 30, 2011 by JulioTheDanks

[nbohr1more]

Something about your writing style or use of language reminds me of LordSoth (from taffersparadise.com).

 

I think you've fallen into some of the same misconceptions that many new players have.

 

First, what you percieve as poor AI behavior is likely just the lack of scripted events. These custom behaviors would be mission specific so they fall to the mappers to implement. Grayman has been busy improving the AI's native thinking but you will never have fully sentient beings in a game. The only way to complete the illusion is with scripted actions and dialog. One of the better examples of this is Sotha's mission Mandrasola. Give that mission a try and see if your perceptions change.

 

With regard to the campaign, at this time it's being promoted as "a" campaing "for" TDM rather than "the" Dark Mod campain. Meaning that while it may be an excellent experience, it is not meant to represent the entirety of The Dark Mod and it's universe. There will still be much work to do to bring all the desired TDM aspects to life.

 

With regard to fan missions. Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the Fan Mission community over at TTLG. There are over 900 missions for Thief 2. The missions range from authentic extensions of Garretts story to wild free-form experiments that have almost nothing to do with Thief. Now imagine that someone who enjoyed those fan missions decided to magically give a graphics and gameplay boost to Thief 2 so that fan mission authors could create even better experiences. That is how you should come to regard the fan mission catalog for TDM. It's not a confusing puzzle to solve where missions will somehow yield an overall story. Each mission is it's own self-contained experience. Much like each episode of The Twilight Show is diffent, so too are TDM missions. With the exception of missions that are part of a series such as Fidcal's "Thief's Den" series, Sotha's "Thomas Porter" series, Melan's "Talbot" series, or even Biker's "St Alban" series. Though, even in those cases, the sequences will not solve "the dark mod story", but instead are their own stories.

[Springheel]

Im having trouble writing a overall review because all the missions are fan based and not the actual teams.

 

Why should that matter? Read any of the reviews above for examples on how reviews are written.

 

Most of these fan missions have a lot of problems. Half the time its not even apparent where I'm supposed to go. They lack the flow that the Thief missions.

 

I'd rather you write reviews for missions you actually like, of course.

[Baddcog]

^agree with what they said.

 

Stuff like loot carry over requires first that missions be packed into a campaign. For the most part there hasn't been any campaign packaging yet, that's pretty new to the mod. So it'll come in time. I'm not sure where loot carry over is atm, but I do believe it is at least planned to be included in campaign mode.

 

Some stuff like doors pushing you out of the way is no more realistic than not. Have you ever had a door in real life push you, slide you across the floor? I doubt it.

 

Though I have pushed for character voices, I think the main issue there is there isn't a 'protagonist' in TDM. Anyone can easily add voice overs, so mainly it comes down to recording them for the map you are making, then you can share that with anyone in the future.

But the voice overs in T2 were pretty sparse anyway and I question your claim about them making you get through a mission intact that without you would have failed.

I made quite a few maps for T2 and used a lot of the voice overs. Most were simple 'Better be careful here', 'can't get through there', 'need a key'. Very generic use anywhere comments. Very few were specific. Generally when you play any map 'better be careful here' is just part of the experience.

 

The AI are actually quite intelligent, have quite a few phases of alertness, can alert each other.... Everything the Thief games had and more (throwing rocks, lighting torches)... like said above, the author needs to script stuff to make them more lively. In T2 a lot of fan missions had scripted events and everyone loves them, many didn't. Even T2 only had a few scattered scripted events.

 

Hate to be picky, but line breaks make it much easier to read

[JulioTheDanks]

Why should that matter? Read any of the reviews above for examples on how reviews are written.

 

 

 

I'd rather you write reviews for missions you actually like, of course.

 

Because I'm hoping the team that developed the game would put out the best quality seeing as they made the mod...

[nbohr1more]

The mod is a "platform".

 

The mission authors are "using the platform".

 

The Dark Mod = Carnegie Hall

 

The mission authors = Concert Pianists

 

Does that clear things up?

 

Would you say that Carnegie Hall is "poorly constructed" if a pianist put on a bad performance?

Edited January 1, 2012 by nbohr1more

[JulioTheDanks]

No, but if the pianist puts on a bad performance when you attend Carnegie Hall what good is Carnegie Hall? Its just a building without the good music.

[Xarg]

Your inability to see the forest for the trees amuses me greatly. The quality of the pianist has absolutely no reflection on the quality (or lack there-of) of Carnegie Hall.

[Springheel]

Because I'm hoping the team that developed the game would put out the best quality seeing as they made the mod...

 

A mission is good because it's good, not because it was made by someone who is part of the development team.

[Baddcog]

No, but if the pianist puts on a bad performance when you attend Carnegie Hall what good is Carnegie Hall? Its just a building without the good music.

 

Actually it is a well fabricated building with great accoustics (?) that had it's reputation stained by a bad pianist. The building is still a great place to have concerts, the organizer just needs to book better talent.

 

The problem with that theory is that TDM isn't a business. It is a free tool for anyone to do as they please with it. Carnegie hall needs to protect it's reputation to continue to make money. They have to hire talent that will draw people in.

Adding 3rd person might please some players, but it's not going to draw in authors or more players to a genre they don't like anyway. If people enjoy playing TDM little things like that won't matter imo. TDM does need to try and draw users in, but it also has to stick to it's roots.

 

Not everyone on the team agreed on everything, everyone had to give and take a little, but all in all it's a very solid foundation for building the kind of game that players of this genre will want to play. People that enjoy playing this type of game are forgiving of authors not making professional maps because they enjoy having maps to play and understand the work it takes to make them.

Of course that isn't to say that they don't want the best possible maps either. Certainly those maps will always outshine the 'poor' ones. But whether it's mappers or team members making those maps doesn't dictate quality.

 

Some of the most required and hardest work on TDM was programming. That doesn't mean the programmers are the best mappers.

[JulioTheDanks]

I mean I have fun with the fan missions. I just played knighton manor. had a blast.

 

I would just hope that if the team has spent 7 years developing DM that their campaign missions would outshine the fan ones. Does this not make sense??? Or am I talking some crazy talk here XD

 

BTW: summary of the thief series in about 4 minutes http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/544-Thief-The-Dark-Project

Edited January 2, 2012 by JulioTheDanks

[Springheel]

Does this not make sense??? Or am I talking some crazy talk here XD

 

It makes sense. It just isn't necessarily correct.

[Xarg]

Good coders or artists aren't necessarily good mappers. Good players aren't necessarily good developers.

 

A full (paid!) development studio has many departments. You have the sound guys, the voice department, the level/map making guys, the code guys, and the people who test it for balance/enjoyment etc. Being a member of one department doesn't magically grant you powers equal to someone in another department.

 

Another mod I play, the dev team aren't the best players. Doesn't your logic state they should be the best players, since they make the mod? Doesn't that sound a little silly? Every minute spent making the mod is a minute less spent on being good at it (playing or mapping, you choose), so it seems unrealistic to expect someone to be the best at everything.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Xarg

[Tels]

Now I have no idea what I am worth as a programmer or how useful my work to TDM was or is - it might even be an negative amount of worth.

 

However, I can tell you that I am a total fail as mapper. Never released a mission, hell, didn't even finish one, not even a small one. All I have to show are two aborted attempts where some of the rough architecture was laid down - but both have problems (the archetecture needs major restructuring to make it playable) and none are even close to be able playable - story, AI, background, interaction, objectives, loot etc. are all missing.

 

If you'd wait for a teammember like me to make a good FM, you'd wait forever.

 

nbohr1mores explanation about the concert hall and the musicians applies - and it hurts that after so many years people still come up with the crazy idea that somehow TDM is "bad" or "missing something" just because nobody used it to its full potential, or because nobody extended it enough.

 

You wouldn't declare a hammer bad/broken/missing features, just because nobody used it to build you a shiny new house (for free, too!) with it yet, wouldn't you?