Lamp Glass

[Springheel]

Baddcog, did you (or anyone else) make any changes to the materials for lamp glass recently? The glass in the broken lanterns in St. Lucia have suddenly become self-lit when they weren't before.

[Baddcog]

I changed the glass texture for my streetlamps (the fancier ones - which I don't think were used in St.Lucia at all), but only from yellow to white to differentiate a bit and add a little variety to the all yellow lights we have in the Mod.

 

I didn't change the shaders.

 

I also didn't change any entities in that regard. If it was a lit skin/entity before it is still the same. Only the unlit entities were 'hidden' in the DoNotUse/Deprecated folder so people will just add unlit props to the regular lit entities they create.

Mainly to shorten the list of light entities, but also to get rid of the confusing inconsistant names (light/light_lit/light_unlit...)

 

None of the changes should effect any existing entities. (if that was an unlit lamp before only the location in the entities list would be different)

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I've got my new HD installled though, so tomorrow I will be setting up a workable SVN copy, I can take a look and see what the deal is.

[Springheel]

Strange. I'll do some digging then to see what happened.

[Nosslak]

A bit off-topic but I think we need more high-res and white/blue-ish lamp-glass as the ones we have are pretty crappy IMO.

[Baddcog]

My HD issues still persist so I'm afraid I won't even be able to look.

 

But please post here, in case it was something I did it will need to be double checked/fixed for 1.08.

[Springheel]

// diffusemap textures/darkmod/window/lamp_glass_unlit

{

map models/darkmod/props/textures/lamp_glass_unlit

red 0.6

green 0.6

blue 0.63

}

 

It looks like you made a change in your last update, commenting out the diffuse stage and adding the bold part.

[Tels]

That just means it is the same diffuse, but only at about 60% of the color value. That should make them a bit darker, but nothing else.

[Springheel]

Not if you comment out the diffusemap, surely....

[Baddcog]

Most of those blends like that don't have a diffuse map outside the blend mode.

 

I just left it there in case it needed rolled back or something...

 

What that should do by what I know, is it actually lights the diffuse a little bit. The purpose of that was because without it the glass (not speaking that one specifically - is that the white glass on the fancy indoor lamps?) was almost black when turned off. (a lot of the outside lamps were like this for sure).

 

I felt they looked better not being black, as the glass isn't actually black. It was also making the lightbulbs black (the biggest offender of the bunch).

 

But I didn't feel it was enough to make it appear illuminated (maybe tad bit- but thought that could be accounted for by diffuse lighting)

 

It did get rid of the weird shading issue too - but I think you then fixed the models so...

 

If it seems to much try the rgb at like .3 .3 .32

 

(also, it might have _black in the ambient stage as a lot of them did, but I think the texture itself made them too bright so _black and this change was better?)

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I'll still take a look before 1.08 but I gotta get this hard drive issue fixed. I've reinstalled windows so now drivers..programs... and unfortunately it didn't fix anything.

 

 

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You can take a look at the test map light_entity too. It's got every single light so anything that needs fixed should be brought up before 1.08.

 

I know there are a couple minor tweaks but i wanted to get this 1.08 instal working first because the fire effects I couldn't see, etc.. It's just turning out to be quite difficult atm.

[Springheel]

Well, right now they're glowing in the dark, which looks silly. I don't recall there being a problem with the glass in the past; it always looked fine to me--dark greyish blue, not black.

[Tels]

Not if you comment out the diffusemap, surely....

 

But "map blahblahdiffuse" is the same as diffusemap, it just allows you to set RGB, which works like a factor in this case...

[Baddcog]

Well, it can be changed, I did mention several times that I'd appreciate people taking a look at that test map and letting me know...

 

One person said they would look but never commented, nobody else responded at all.

[rebb]

But "map blahblahdiffuse" is the same as diffusemap, it just allows you to set RGB, which works like a factor in this case...

 

"map" only works like a diffusemap if the stage is specifically set to "blend diffusemap" though.

A stage with no blend-setting behaves more like a fullbright.

[Springheel]

Ok, I went through a bit of the map--haven't seen it all yet. Without being able to take more than one screenshot at a time it's hard to give decent feedback, but I did see a few odd things.

 

The flames on the torches right near the beginning were offset and look like they need be raised (one was half-way down the handle).

 

There were some odd campfires that had smoke but no fire? Some even had light emanating from them even though there was no flame visible.

 

Many of the mushrooms looked far too dark to be giving off light (see below). The ones in the top left corner look bright enough, but the bottom green ones, and the other colours, don't look like they're bright enough to be giving off any amount of light at all. Also, I think the colour of the light is far too saturated...I would personally tone it down considerably. Looks like intense Christmas lights right now.

 

 

It's nice to see how many light models we actually have though...I haven't seen some of those used before, so it will be nice that mappers will now have easy access to them. Thanks for taking the time to go through them; we'll get the glitches sorted out in plenty of time for 1.08.

 

I'll continue to poke around and give feedback when I can.

[Baddcog]

Ok thanks.

 

The bad torch is actually the default one, can't delete it , someone may have used it at some point and just readjusted the flames? I'm not sure how we got this far with ai carrying torches in so many maps and yet that is where the flame is attached? Maybe when attached to ai it changes?

So that needs looked into I guess.

But that torch is 'deprecated' so people shouldn't use it anymore.

 

Those fires are actually 'smoldering' versions. They were already there, I just put them in the map. I didn't notice any giving off a noticeable amount of light though. But we can adjust if needed.

 

All those are the 'dimly lit' mushrooms. Their light isn't as bright. (it's approx half bright/half radius of the bright lit versions).

There isn't a bright lit version of any colors that are only dull in the map.

There are approx 80 mushroom combos, I burnt out halfway through lol.

Should we:

a- get rid of the dim ones?

b-make bright versions for all colors?

c- have both and adjust as needed?

(I agree they could use a desaturate, I just went with what was there to start and added/ added skins for all versions -3 mush, etc..)

 

--------

you are actually at the 'end' of the map, I just never moved the start back to the beginning. So the lamps you are using are at the far north end. (it's like 5 big rooms, a few twist in a curl).

[Springheel]

The bad torch is actually the default one, can't delete it , someone may have used it at some point and just readjusted the flames? I'm not sure how we got this far with ai carrying torches in so many maps

 

Something is off there, because I've used plenty of AI with torches and never had to adjust anything. Were you using atdm:prop_torch_on?

 

There are approx 80 mushroom combos

 

That seems ridiculously excessive to me.

[Baddcog]

That torch is

 

atdm:moveable_torch1

 

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the mush are:

 

3 single models. one bent, one straight, one leaning. then there is a 3 mush model, in 3 variations also.

 

Then there are skins for :

white/green/blue/red/yellow

 

and variations of bright lit/dim lit/not lit (natural mushroom)

 

So I don't know the math there, but it's a lot of combos, lol. I only created some variations of each for testing in that map.

[Springheel]

atdm:moveable_torch1

 

Ok, that entity is not the one attached to AI, and probably hasn't been used. IIRC, someone made a map years ago where you had to shoot an arrow at torch to knock it off the wall and fall down a shaft. That was probably made for that case (not sure why else you'd want a movable torch).

 

and variations of bright lit/dim lit/not lit (natural mushroom)

 

That is a lot, but, the unlit ones don't need to be entities, do they? I probably would have just made one of the single models with a note saying mappers could swap a different model in, or something, but no matter. Just seems funny we have more variety for mushrooms than we do for torches.

 

As far as the skins, I think the visual difference between the bright/dim ones should be small or non-existent. Even a mushroom that gives off dim light should be quite bright. I'd personally just reuse the same skin for both (we don't vary the brightness of any of our flames based on how bright the light is, after all).

[Baddcog]

OK, well the unlit is just the white non light version. The original texture. No light entity actually.

 

The skins were already in the system, so we can't get rid of them, however we can change the props to be brighter. Then we can add brighter light versions and just reuse the 'dim 'skin (even though it will be a brighter skin).

The entities will just be dim or bright then (same skin, different light/radius)

 

1 mushroom bright is like a radius of 60, 3 mush bright is like a radius of 80 or something. But yeah, I guess We could have had just one 1 mush and 1 3 mush version for each color... I'll change that, will be easy enough to delete them. There were no mush light entities in 1.07, so getting rid of them now is a good idea.

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I just figured the moveable torch was for guards so I fixed it. I actually used it in The Rift (had a guy that fell in a hole and 'dropped' his torch), but it was the bad flame model I recall) So I guess there might be uses for it on occasion.

[Baddcog]

OK, everything basically looks like I left it, sans for the fires I couldn't see. Now that I have 1.08 loaded I can see they need adjustments.

 

One torch is way off to the side for some reason. A few flames are a tad bit too low.

 

*Statues: all use the old flames, do we want to change to the new flames? Does it matter?

 

*Bonfires: need a larger flame particle made. The campfire flame is barely even there.

 

*smoldering fires. The light probably is too much, and when lit (they should them become fully lit campfire) they still seem small. Maybe new particle effect is smaller bounding box than old??? I really haven't touched them at all other than adding them to the map.

 

* will diminish the glow of unlit glass...mainly the sphere lamp and the fancy inside lamps.

 

*mushroom adjustments.

[Springheel]

I've been testing the map some more and have some detailed feedback now that I can get screenshots:

 

1. lamp-- metal does not cast shadow?

 

2. also, are those lamps suitable for electric lights? They don't have any antennae or any other visible means of power. They look like oil lamps meant to be carried around and hung wherever.

 

3. fireplace--flame is wider than the logs

 

4. Fireplaces have strong shadows that move back and forth. This looks pretty distracting, and is also a performance issue...moving lights like that are a big performance hit, and in this case it doesn't even look right since the light IN the fireplace doesn't noticeably pulse or flicker.

[Springheel]

The wall candles cannot be picked up or pinched out? That's a significant problem, I think, as it doesn't work the same way that (identical looking) candles placed by hand work. The gold ones that are part of the model are a different matter, as they have never been pinchable, but the regular movable candles sitting on top of your candleholder have been used frequently in maps already.

 

Also, when I shot the flames out on the standing candelabra, the light stayed for a good three or four seconds before winking out. Not sure what that was about.

 

1. The lanterns could be picked up but not be turned off ?

 

2. There was a huge fire but no apparent fuel. Also, the shadow jumped around like mad even though the flame was quite steady.

 

3-5 Examples of fires where the light seems brighter than it should be:

[Baddcog]

OK thanks.

 

1- yeah, that was like the last lamp I found... just haven't gotten around to it.

 

2- umm, I dunno. I guess they don't have to be switchable, the ring to me doesn't seem like a handle though, just something to hook onto. I don't think they have a buzz. I guess we can just make them non-switchable... Put them under lanterns??? Suggestions welcome.

 

3- I think those are the 'new flames', which unfortunately I can't see yet as they aren't in 1.07. And I STILL haven't got my parts sorted out for my new build, so no hard drive space...still no luck testing on 1.08... I just wish that crap was over already.

So yeah, I agree they could probably be tweaked... Should be easy to do but i don't know when I can get to it.

 

4- Whoever made the flame entities assigned the moving light. I didn't mess with those. Your call, if you don't want them... I think flickering lights give some nice variety. Maybe the particles just need to move more? Again, your call.

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Yeah, the attached candle to the sconce doesn't move. It is a moveable candle attached though. Been meaning to get some help on that.

 

I want it to be an entity so it's in the hiearchy with all the lights instead of separate. However i don't know why those candles aren't frobbable after spawn.

 

The gold one actually has the same issue to a degree.

a-yes, there is the modelled in version, which really doesn't need an entity. At this point I don't recall if it already was one. Preferably would be best to not release on if possible.

b-there is a no candles model, which can have candles attached. However, see the sconce problem, that's why I skipped making one for now.

 

Of course that leaves the standing one which matches the gold wall one. We could remove candles and have them def attached also but... see above.

 

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1- the lanterns were already in, I just added them into the map so everything possible is represented. I suppose they just need a frobbable prop. But I'm not sure, can you carry and turn on/off? Or is it one or the other?

 

2- Yeah, I just added a campfire to the dish. But I guess some logs would also be good.

 

3- I agree those are too bright (I couldn't see the particle before). I think 3 and 4 are actually the same fire.

==========

 

I'll try and get to this in the next few days/ maybe this weekend.

 

For now i'll have to leave the flame particles edit to someone else.

 

And if anyone knows why the moveable candle spawned on a wall sconce can't be moved, let me know please.

[Tels]

Fireplaces: They had moving lights before I touched them, so it has been this like a few years - and nobody ever complained that a moving light in a fireplace eats performance - instead everyone seemed to like that the shadows move due to the fire...

 

The flames being wider than the logs is because we only have one version of the logs - a slightly wider version would be cool, also half-burnt down logs and better ash heaps (I seem to post a request for these kind of models about once a year there is even a tracker entry IIRC).

 

Also, when I shot the flames out on the standing candelabra, the light stayed for a good three or four seconds before winking out. Not sure what that was about.

 

This typically means that the "off" even goes not in a sep. thread, but waits for the "pffft" particle to play and end (the one that plays a bit of smoke rising). I'd wager a bet that the flame is not properly bound to an entity with a "tdm_light_holder" script (because the script takes care of such issues).

 

And if anyone knows why the moveable candle spawned on a wall sconce can't be moved, let me know please.

 

Maybe it collides with the candle holder? Have you tried spawning it 10 units above?

[Springheel]

2- umm, I dunno. I guess they don't have to be switchable, the ring to me doesn't seem like a handle though, just something to hook onto. I don't think they have a buzz. I guess we can just make them non-switchable... Put them under lanterns??? Suggestions welcome

 

I thought they did have a buzz, but maybe that was coming from something else in the map.

 

3- I think those are the 'new flames', which unfortunately I can't see yet as they aren't in 1.07.

 

I don't think they're new. They're certainly not Arcturus' flames, which are the only new ones I'm aware of.

 

1- the lanterns were already in, I just added them into the map so everything possible is represented. I suppose they just need a frobbable prop. But I'm not sure, can you carry and turn on/off? Or is it one or the other?

 

I'm pretty sure you can do both...you can carry candles and turn them off. In fact, I have a foggy notion of being able to pick up and turn off lanterns in some maps.

 

Fireplaces: They had moving lights before I touched them, so it has been this like a few years - and nobody ever complained that a moving light in a fireplace eats performance - instead everyone seemed to like that the shadows move due to the fire...

 

Maybe it's because there is no ambient light in the test map, but the shadows are huge and look somewhat silly to me bouncing around, especially since the fire itself doesn't move much at all. If it doesn't bother anyone else that's fine.

 

The flames being wider than the logs is because we only have one version of the logs - a slightly wider version would be cool, also half-burnt down logs and better ash heaps

 

Don't we have a smaller flame particle? Wider logs would barely fit inside fireplace #4. (we do have a half-burnt log model, btw)

 

 

 

I'll do some more testing in the other rooms tonight.