Cathedral Map

[SneaksieDave]

Since it is stated that at least one mission (not yet finished?) will be in T2 no matter what, I think that a change over to TDM might be... wow, while it's kinda scary, because it might fracture the community badly - and might even risk HI ever coming at all - it might instead have the effect of producing some serious content for TDM sooner than later, and might help convince people to "come over" to the dark side (as if that's necessary - it's perfectly possible to enjoy ALL the thief games at the same time - I do).

 

From the look of Imperium that I've seen (and drooled - don't forget also that a lot of TDM members don't know anything about HI beyond being a watching fan), it'd be like suddenly having uber-mapping going on with the mod. There would also be contributions in art and design, which as we've all seen is quite impressive. Collecting, pooling, sharing ideas and... and stuff! is never a bad thing.

[New Horizon]

"come over" to the dark side.

 

 

Hmmm, I like that.

[sparhawk]

To be honest sparhawk the reason the mods and admins got annoyed with TDM was that there were a few posts where you guys (before I joined) came and told people how TDM was going to be better than T3Ed. And I think some of them were before T3Ed was even released.

 

Facts are facts. And from what I have heard and seen from T3Ed this still stands. It's not even our fault that D3 is better than T3Ed, because Id did a better job with the engine and with the editing tools. I was anxiously waiting for T3 and I also sent my letter to ION, but after seeing what we got, I prefer to face it and say it sucks, instead of religiously worshipping it because it is from a *AAAHHHH* Gaming Company *OOOHHH*.

 

That annoyed me, as one of the 2 campaign runners/organisers/coders, too since anyone involved in organising the release could have seen those posts and thought "screw them then if they think they can do better".

 

And why? If we do better then what's the problem? You would rather live with sucking tools, just so that you don't have to be honest with you? I know that a lot of work was invested, but that shouldn't be a reason to blindly accept everything. If you put a lot of work into something and then you get something that sucks, han it's IMO better to admit it, then to lie to oneself just to safe the worktime.

 

The TTLG admins and mods had T3Ed before anyone else and worked pretty hard to get ot know it and use it so that, like DromEd, it could be shown to be functional and usable by fans. At that time TDM was still years away from release and even though anyone can see that D3 is better engine for Thief FMs (and look who is saying that in this post after all!) TDM was still vapourware.

 

Agreed. I can understand that point, because 90% of the internet projects are vapourware. Especially when done in the free time. On the other hand, from our point of view, T3Ed was just the same. That some admins got it in secret doesn't help because we didn't have this information and we knew as much as everybody else, which was nothing.

 

T3Ed has never been vapourware and so to people trying to get it released the situation was always one where an editor existed and we wanted it, whilst at the same time a bunch of guys had decided to do their own thing that may never see the light of day and yet were ragging on the editor we wanted.

 

How do you know that it was NOT vapourware? Yeah. Because you are a buddy of the admins and maybe got firsthandknowledge, but that doesn't really count. For all the information what was available, T3Ed was as much vapuroware for US as for everybody else.

 

For hardcore Thief fans, such as everyone on this team, can you not see how that might annoy people? It has nothing to do with professionalism and when TDM comes out you just know that GBM and crew will love it AND use it.

 

I can understand that people prefer to stick to what they put much work into it. It's even more sad that we jsut got "this". But I know that many companies don't spend budget on their editing tools, because they don't consider them as part of their project, which is wrong, and which shows also not much professionalism on their part.

 

As to the team name - The Dark Mod. That should be the team name too. We ARE The Dark Mod. Or The Dark Modifiers. Hmmm, that's too much like Dark Engineering Guild. . .

 

Yeah. I guess everybody knows us already by that name.

[sparhawk]

I felt bad about voting Dark Mod in that poll.

 

But I did it anyway

 

Which poll? I haven't seen it. I also need to cast my objective and neutral vote.

[sparhawk]

Since it is stated that at least one mission (not yet finished?) will be in T2 no matter what, I think that a change over to TDM might be... wow, while it's kinda scary, because it might fracture the community badly - and might even risk HI ever coming at all - it might instead have the effect of producing some serious content for TDM sooner than later, and might help convince people to "come over" to the dark side (as if that's necessary - it's perfectly possible to enjoy ALL the thief games at the same time - I do).

 

Personally I think that will happen in about 5 years anyway. When D3 will be GPLed, there is no reason to stick to Thief anymore, because TDM will offer much more. Of course we have to survive that long. HEHE.

[Macsen]

Which poll? I haven't seen it. I also need to cast my objective and neutral vote.

 

Its on the Imperium forum. Only the most pious may enter. You must pass through a soul detector.

[sparhawk]

I can easily pass that test as I'm the most pious person I know.

[Subjective Effect]

Facts are facts. And from what I have heard and seen from T3Ed this still stands. It's not even our fault that D3 is better than T3Ed, because Id did a better job with the engine and with the editing tools. I was anxiously waiting for T3 and I also sent my letter to ION, but after seeing what we got, I prefer to face it and say it sucks, instead of religiously worshipping it because it is from a *AAAHHHH* Gaming Company *OOOHHH*.

 

And why? If we do better then what's the problem? You would rather live with sucking tools, just so that you don't have to be honest with you? I know that a lot of work was invested, but that shouldn't be a reason to blindly accept everything. If you put a lot of work into something and then you get something that sucks, han it's IMO better to admit it, then to lie to oneself just to safe the worktime.

 

Agreed. I can understand that point, because 90% of the internet projects are vapourware. Especially when done in the free time. On the other hand, from our point of view, T3Ed was just the same. That some admins got it in secret doesn't help because we didn't have this information and we knew as much as everybody else, which was nothing.

This is the issue though. TDM is NOT better than T3Ed because it is not complete yet. Since 90% of internet projects are vapourware there was and is no way for people to KNOW that it will be better. You have to have faith, like I have, but you cannot and should not blame people for scepticsm for the very reason you mentioned.

How do you know that it was NOT vapourware? Yeah. Because you are a buddy of the admins and maybe got firsthandknowledge, but that doesn't really count. For all the information what was available, T3Ed was as much vapuroware for US as for everybody else.

Well everyone knew it actually existed because the devs, including Warren himself, said so. They just said the weren't going to release it. We wouldn't have campaigned if there was nothing to campaign for.

 

And because GlasWolf and I ran Thiefpetition.com we were contacted or put in contact with lots of people who were in the know, including Ion Storm devs and Eidos people. There was a lot we couldn't say because we didn't want to get people's hopes up and it really wasn't definite until the very end. But we gave enough hints, as did GBM, that the editor was being tested and prepared for release. David giving us the T3Ed.exe icon was a huuuge giveaway. But I guess it depends on how closely you followed the campaign. And in actual fact GBM told us very little.

 

Also remember that the TDM hype you guys put on at TTLG started before T3Ed was released.

[Darkness_Falls]

@SE: I could care less if people choose not to use TDM if they don't like our team, or are jealous, or think we have big egos. I personally don't think we should publicize ourselves this way, but if some on our team do, then so be it. I dislike the notion that we should have to sell our personalities to the community when we're producing a product. We're not selling the team behind the product. We're selling the product (figuratively speaking). So if TDM turns out to be better than T3eD; or turns out to be better than Thief 1 Thief 2 and Thief 3, then so be it. It's their loss if they're so childish to not try TDM because TDM members were too egotistical or offensive. Who's more rediculous: mod members who are excited and want to boast about the potential of their product (when we've all seen Thief 3 in action), or Thief community members who choose to boycott an awesome product (assuming it will be) because they disliked a personality or two on the team? I can almost guarantee there were at least a few members at Ion Storm who had similar egos about their T3 product-to-be, yet Marketing/Legal wouldn't let them publicize. Just because we publicize and they didn't means their product should be more respected and appreciated? Makes no sense to me. I'm sure the Thief community would be offended if they heard some of the things that were said behind closed doors at Ion Storm or Eidos, yet the fans still bought the product and still bask in the glory of what is Thief. Hmm. So basically, be quiet like a mouse, don't offend anyone and we will be loved -- and our product used? That's pretty childish of the fans and I don't think we need to pander to that.

[sparhawk]

This is the issue though. TDM is NOT better than T3Ed because it is not complete yet. Since 90% of internet projects are vapourware there was and is no way for people to KNOW that it will be better. You have to have faith, like I have, but you cannot and should not blame people for scepticsm for the very reason you mentioned.

 

Ah, I get it. So we are allowed to have faith in the release of an editor where we got no word, but we don't need to thave the same faith in a fan project?

 

Well everyone knew it actually existed because the devs, including Warren himself, said so. They just said the weren't going to release it. We wouldn't have campaigned if there was nothing to campaign for.

 

That it existed doesn't matter. Of course everybody kjnows that it existed, that was never the question. The question was wether it will be released. The sourcecode for Thief and Thief 2 also exists somewhere, but from our point of view it is just a myth. We can assume that it exists, but it doesn't really matter, because we don't have access to it, and we have no indication that we will get access to it. That's my point. Right now, it's easy to say, because with hindsight you always no better, but at the time the campaign was running the chances for the editor were just as existing. As I said. firsthand knowledge that is not transmitted doesn't count.

 

And because GlasWolf and I ran Thiefpetition.com we were contacted or put in contact with lots of people who were in the know, including Ion Storm devs and Eidos people.

 

So what? I't nice that some of you were contacted and in the know. That doesn't change the fact for all the others. An information that exists in some void is no information. Does a tree in the forrest make a noise if nobody is around to hear it? No it doesn't. It's as simple as that.

 

But we gave enough hints, as did GBM, that the editor was being tested and prepared for release. David giving us the T3Ed.exe icon was a huuuge giveaway.

 

Like Sherlock Holmes. He knows everything and it looks like a miracle, and after he explains it's its obvious. Afterwards you always know better. Since you seem to knew it, it may have been a "huuuge giveaway" but for others it was not. Making an icon is a job of about 1 hour if you don't know the tools well, so what kind of a giveaway is that?

 

Also remember that the TDM hype you guys put on at TTLG started before T3Ed was released.

 

Of course. After all we were excited with the project. That's normal. If we were not as excited, we wouldn't be around now and continuing the work.

[sparhawk]

I can almost guarantee there were at least a few members at Ion Storm who had similar egos about their T3 product-to-be, yet Marketing/Legal wouldn't let them publicize.

 

Actually that is what marketing is about. If you read interviews from Warren Specotr or the other guys, talking about their product, then they also tell us how great it is. Of course they do. If THEY don't say it's great, who will? If somebody tries to sell me a product he is working on, I expect him to be convionced about this product. If I still think it is crap, then that's my opinion, but what shall I think about a product, that not even the guy who is doing it, is convinced of?

 

Just because we publicize and they didn't means their product should be more respected and appreciated?

 

I don't think that this is the publicit on it's own. There is this attitude that "professionals" get money for it and therefore have to be better at it. It seems that many people don't realise that the difference between a professional and an amateur is very often only the money. Especially in software development you can easily see this. In some cases this is even true. A professional football player is much better than an amateur, but a professional artist doesn't need to be automatically better than a amateur artist. And this is the same with software developers. I have seen enough programmers who are much worse then people I know doing it just for fun and working on something else for a job. They are doing it out of passion and this is the reason why they are good at it. And another fact that people don't seem to realise is, that often professional software developers are the same persons doing it for fun in their spare time as well. So this attitude is quite stupid if applied in such a general way.

[Darkness_Falls]

SE wrote: 'This is the issue though. TDM is NOT better than T3Ed because it is not complete yet. Since 90% of internet projects are vapourware there was and is no way for people to KNOW that it will be better. You have to have faith, like I have, but you cannot and should not blame people for scepticsm for the very reason you mentioned.'

It's beyond just simple skepticism, though, imo. They'd rather destroy the project just because they have personality conflicts with TDM members. I don't like the 'high and mighty' attitudes and egos of certain entertainers, but I'm not so unreasonable or childish that I boycott their high quality product.

 

EDIT: Sparhawk, you missed my point. I know Marketing is there to publicize and shine glowing light on their product, but they wouldn't allow their developers and artists to egotistically put fans or competing projects down from the beginning.

[Macsen]

Why do people keep complaining that mod makers are arrogant? You need to have an insane amount of self-belief in the fact that, not only will you have the skills to complete a mod, but that your mod will shake the game world to its very core, to bother trying in the first place. Without arrogance mods would not exist. Simple as.

[sparhawk]

It's beyond just simple skepticism, though, imo. They'd rather destroy the project just because they have personality conflicts with TDM members. I don't like the 'high and mighty' attitudes and egos of certain entertainers, but I'm not so unreasonable or childish that I boycott their high quality product.

 

I don't think it's that. They rather destroy TDM because they religiously cling to Thief as if it were the holy grail.

[Darkness_Falls]

Wanting to destroy our project based on personality conflicts and them also happening to be religious Thief zealots kind've go hand-in-hand. Being a Thief zealot alone doesn't necessarily mean you dislike anything that is not Thief. I'm a Thief zealot, and I like everything Thief-related, even other mod endeavors.

 

If we had not posted any controversial thoughts or comments publically, and instead just posted screenshots, they'd love our mod and would be eager for it without much complaint. It's when you threaten their Thief foundation with confidence and cockiness (how dare you look down upon the prospects of T3eD) that they resort to childish posts like, "Keep it up, Sparhawk (or oDDity), you're just ruining it for The Dark Mod", or whatever they say.

 

So you need other variables, like personality conflicts, egos, power trips and jealousy to enter the equation. We weren't infidels and traitors until some of you rocked their fragile foundation with opinionated opinions. Now the whole divide is childishly stupid. Get over it people.

[sparhawk]

The funny thing is, when I was not a member of TDM it was ok to say that I didn't like TDS because I considered it to be crap. If I say the same now, it is TDS bashing and TDM boosting, even though my opinion hasn't changed. Well, it did change a bit, but this is more due to time, not because I feel that I have to pimp TDM. I'm pretty convinced that it will be extremly good, based on our team expertise, so I don't have doubts about that.