Rl "water Arrow"?

[oDDity]

Ordinary gel does not do the same job, as numerous people have pointed out.

 

They haven't pointed it out. They've said 'that wouldn't work'

They haven't done any experiments to prove it wouln't work, and in theory it would work perfectly well.

[Macsen]

I can't believe you're still arguing for this crazy idea, it's obvious the rest of the team would rather wrestle a leper in this jelly than put it on their arrows.

 

I'm not sure what bizarre idea you have of houses in the past, that they were all full of puddles of water, and when torches went out it was normal for them to be soaked in water.

 

I'm not saying it's normal for a house to have puddles of water in it, I'm saying a puddle of water is less suspicious than a puddle of boiled animal. You can't disagree with that, end of.

 

That's maybe how you live in Wales, but the rest of the world isn't like that, believe me.

 

Really? O, God, I didn't know. Thank you for informing me of this, mysterious leprechaun from beyond the sea. Things must be so different over there, being a full fifty miles away and all.

 

from the perspective of the character you're playing you wouldn't want them to relight it anyway, so it's more realistic.

 

It's realistic because the character doesn't want it to happen? Does he have a genie in his pocket, making all his wishes come true?

 

How the fuck can holy water get into a water crystal just be dipping it in a font? If no water can leak out of the crystal then none can get in either.

 

Again with the water crystals. Forget the water crystals.

[Vadrosaul]

The good thing about this thread is that it shows those who don't have access to the private forums exactly what happens to every single thread within said private forums.

 

I'm enjoying it Is this how most threads develop in there, with Oddity arguing amongst himself and most of everyone else shooting his thoughts/idead down?

[oDDity]

I can't believe you're still arguing for this crazy idea, it's obvious the rest of the team would rather wrestle a leper in this jelly than put it on their arrows.

I don't give a shit what the res of the team say. Facts aren't established by democracy. If something's right then it's right no matter how many people vote against it.

I'm not saying it's normal for a house to have puddles of water in it, I'm saying a puddle of water is less suspicious than a puddle of boiled animal. You can't disagree with that, end of.

Yes, I can disagree with it. As I've said....oh, maybe 10 times by now, only a small amount of gel is required, so it would't leave a fucking puddle, since there isn't enough of it to form a puddle.

I realise English is your second language, but don't push it.

 

It's realistic because the character doesn't want it to happen? Does he have a genie in his pocket, making all his wishes come true?

 

He chooses which tools to take, and if he can take one which means the torches he douses cannot be relit, then he's going to choose it over one that means the torches can be relit.

 

You really are the worse debater I've ever argued with. Your points are so transparent and badly reasoned they hardly even need a reply, but I do like to take pity on the dim-witted and set them straight when I can.

[oDDity]

I'm enjoying it Is this how most threads develop in there, with Oddity arguing amongst himself and most of everyone else shooting his thoughts/idead down?

 

Yes, and this is why TDM will be half the game it could be.

[obscurus]

My vote is for no arrows of any kind of all, but I guess that is less popular than oDDity's Gel Arrow.

 

I can't see why you are bagging the idea of Gel Arrows so much - it is at least plausible in RL. Though if you assume that water arrows don't really contain water, but a water-like liquid that has extreme fire retardent properties, then the difference is quite academic. I was always rather annoyed with the magic element in Thief, I would much prefer that TDM steered clear of magic, and instead focussed on science on invention (but then I am heavily biased to that sort of thing).

[Macsen]

You really are the worse debater I've ever argued with. Your points are so transparent and badly reasoned they hardly even need a reply, but I do like to take pity on the dim-witted and set them straight when I can.

You're the worst fibber I've ever argued with. 'I take pity on the dim-witted'. Bollocks, you'r struggling to justify your stupid gel arrows, hell you might have realised yourself how ridiculous they are by now, but you're too stubborn to let it go.

 

Is this how most threads develop in there, with Oddity arguing amongst himself and most of everyone else shooting his thoughts/idead down?

Fair play, oDDity has good ideas occasionally, this just isn't one of them.

 

I would much prefer that TDM steered clear of magic, and instead focussed on science on invention (but then I am heavily biased to that sort of thing).

Overall we're more concerned with making a game that's enjoyable than making a RL thief simulator. That's where oDDity and most of the team differ, he wants to make a game that isn't fun but extremely challenging, the rest of us want a good balance between the two.

 

I realise English is your second language, but don't push it.

You're turning into a bad parody of yourself.

[oDDity]

Challenge and fun are not mutually exclusive, and magic is not an essential ingredient of a fun game.

[Fingernail]

Oddity speaks!

[Macsen]

Oddity speaks!

I almost shat myself.

 

Truly proud to have played such a small part in such a wonderful creation. :*)

[Vadrosaul]

Oddity speaks!

 

HAHA Oddity has his own theme music. It's a nice Irish gig

[SneaksieDave]

I'm enjoying it Is this how most threads develop in there, with Oddity arguing amongst himself and most of everyone else shooting his thoughts/idead down?

No, it doesn't have to be Oddity - it happens with any and all.

 

(people AND topics)

[Ishtvan]

Goddamit, all I wanted was to link to a video of a cool foam explosion.

 

I agree with Obscurus that the difference between gel and liquid arrows is pretty academic. Both put out torches. Both are suspicious, gel upon closer inspection than liquid, but we can assume that a guard who is concerned about an extinguished torch will look at it closely enough to notice the gel (especially the gel that did not perfectly flow onto the torch, but fell to the ground or splattered on the wall at the time of impact, since there will be some).

 

To me it doesn't make a difference which we use. I'd much rather be arguing about more pressing issues, or actually working on things.

[oDDity]

Oddity speaks!

 

Well, more Southern Irish than Northern Irish accent there, but

[obscurus]

...Overall we're more concerned with making a game that's enjoyable than making a RL thief simulator. That's where oDDity and most of the team differ, he wants to make a game that isn't fun but extremely challenging, the rest of us want a good balance between the two...

 

 

Where is it written in the Book of Cyril that a RL thief simulator isn't fun? I find challenging games to be extremely fun (apparently I'm in the minority there), and the idea that there has to be a balance between fun and challenge is completely preposterous. As oDDity said, they are not mutually exclusive, you can make a tremendously fun game that is also realistic and challenging. It is NOT an either fun or challenging situation. It can be BOTH fun AND challenging. I don't see how that concept is so hard to grasp. OK, I accept that you are not going to go for a high level of realism with this mod, but don't pretend there is some immutable of law of nature that defines "fun" as "not challenging".

[Springheel]

don't pretend there is some immutable of law of nature that defines "fun" as "not challenging".

 

No, but at some point adding more challenge to the game decreases fun.

[Macsen]

Where is it written in the Book of Cyril that a RL thief simulator isn't fun?

 

The Book of Cyril, Chapter XI:

 

Verse II: And Lo! it was said by the prophet Macsen unto the braying mob, 'Hear ye! Today I say to thee, fine people, that we doth aim to make to strike a balance between the challanges that test thee and keep they mind and body sharp, and the simple pleasures that doth keep thee happy.'

 

Verse III: And Lo! at that very moment the disgruntled one from the Green Isle, the gnarly Oddity of Ireland, didst manifest himself, and declare, 'What! Challenge and fun are not mutually exclusive.' And with that he fled.

 

Verse IV: And also, with that, Obscurus the Wind God (for his posts were long and filled many a bag) didst breeze past from the Southern Ocean, and declare his support for gnarled Oddity, saying much the same thing but in a hyndred and thirty words rather than six.

 

Verse V: And at that the prophet Macsen didst reply before the mob: 'I knows that. But if a game is too challenging it becomes frustratingly difficult and boring, and stops being fun, so you have to get the balance right between the two, y'know? If you want to try this theory out, throw thyself off the Tarpeian Rock, and see how a very difficult challenge isn't always a good thynge.'

[obscurus]

Hey, I sometimes write very short posts > Ok, not very often

 

"No, but at some point adding more challenge to the game decreases fun."

 

Well, possibly, but I have yet to play a game that gets anywhere even remotely near that point, and I've played some pretty realistic and challenging games in my time (games I don't find fun are usually as a result of them not being challenging enough, or simply stupid and overly unrealistic). There are some challenges that are not fun for me because they are overly repetitive, or not varied enough...

Edited January 17, 2006 by obscurus

[Macsen]

Hey, I sometimes write very short posts > Ok, not very often

I was joking, don't worry.

 

There are some challenges that are not fun for me because they are overly repetitive, or not varied enough...

That's what we aim to avoid, really. Some ideas have been suggested, and turned down, which turned simple actions into frustrating mini games. I think the lockpick is a good example of this - in the first Thief games it was far too easy and boring, TDS made it more challenging and raised the fun level somewhat, we aim to make it more challenging still... but if we got the balance wrong and forced the player to solve a difficult door lock that was a mini-game unto itself every five minutes, it would take challenge beyond fun into frustration.

[obscurus]

Well, quite.

[Domarius]

People on both sides are taking aspects of the others idea and taking it to the negative extreme to "prove" it wouldn't work.

 

Either one is "plausable", in the game world I think, it's just a matter of which one can be made to look the best and use ideas from it in the gameplay.

 

The actual gameplay differences I've seen mentioned are;

 

Narrower chance of hitting,

Having to clean up after yourself.

[thestemmer]

I'd just like to point out that the idea of a "realistic" thief simulator is silly in itself. In "real life," the biggest part of a master thief's job is casing out the place he is going to rob, which can easily take weeks or even months. That would certainly be no fun in the context of a game. And even if we assume all of the casing has been done ahead of time, the missions themselves would be boring. In a good robbery, there isn't even anyone present. And even if the thief had to deal with patrolling guards, he certainly wouldn't carry around a bundle of silly arrows to douse torches from a distance. There are almost no situations where something like the "gel arrow" oDDity proposed would be remotely useful. If the situation was so desparate that he needed that torch out that badly, then something must have gone badly wrong and the best thing the thief could do is to get the hell out of there.

 

So it's really a moot point whether our thief carries gel or water arrows, since the whole idea is rediculous to start with. Personally, I like magical arrows better than oDDity's MacGuyver arrows, just because it's simpler and it doesn't feel as much like a badly justified excuse for something we know wouldn't work in real life. But again, it doesn't really matter that much. It's a game, and in a game liberties will be taken.

Edited January 17, 2006 by thestemmer

[sparhawk]

Yes, and this is why TDM will be half the game it could be.

 

This is why TDM will be a great game and not the broing stuff that Oddity whishes it to be.

[sparhawk]

Oddity speaks!

 

ROTFL!

[sparhawk]

I'd just like to point out that the idea of a "realistic" thief simulator is silly in itself. In "real life," the biggest part of a master thief's job is casing out the place he is going to rob, which can easily take weeks or even months. That would certainly be no fun in the context of a game.

 

Concerning real life simluation. I still have plans to create my Real Life Tree Simulator. A very wonderfull game for gardeners and such who wants to become one. You can plant trees and watch them grow in eral time. Yes! IN REAL TIME! Isn't that cool? And so realistic. Hundreds of years of gamplay fun, by watching how your tiny plant grows into a huge big oak tree. For the less patient players I thought I can include trees that grow much faster. In about a year or so. As a quick demo of the real thing, so they get a feel for how the game plays.