Weapons In Water Wish List

[Ishtvan]

In this case, a crowbar can help provide some immersion, since you can understand using a crowbar to break open things, or lever open certain grates, but not a sword.

 

Speak for yourself, I can understand using a sword as a prybar, and it doesn't require an extra inventory item to scroll to. We're talking about a short sword that has a large cross section and can take some torsion before it breaks, not a thin rapier.

[Domarius]

To the best of my knowledge, swords were very brittle when it came to bending, because of the way they manufactured them back then. You could snap one that was laying on the ground just by stomping on the blade close to the hilt.

 

A crowbar is a solid rod of iron with a small bend and a large "handle" part for levering; it's designed for prying things.

 

Although I don't feel really firmly about having it in the game, I'm gonna defend the idea because it's not totally stupid, like some of you are making out. I wouldn't mind seeing it in the game.

[Springheel]

Poison darts aren't stupid either, but we're not including them because they don't do anything significant that isn't already covered by other tools. If we're going to accept that a short sword can be used to bash down doors, then prying things open is hardly a stretch. There's literally no end to possible tools we could add to the player's inventory--glass cutters, rope ladders, garrottes, flintlock pistols, chloroform and a mirror on a stick have all been suggested...didn't Macsen even suggested the player carry around a cat to distract guards with? We decided not to support any of those things because they didn't add anything to the game.

[sparhawk]

Speak for yourself, I can understand using a sword as a prybar, and it doesn't require an extra inventory item to scroll to. We're talking about a short sword that has a large cross section and can take some torsion before it breaks, not a thin rapier.

 

Go ahead and try it. You might be suprised about the difference.

[bob_arctor]

Re: Key and crowbar

 

 

Springheel you need the key as well! For the safe box! Dur!

 

See it adds another layer to objectives!

 

[Cyberwolf]

See it adds another layer to objectives!

 

I don't really recall any game EVER where this kind of objective layering was a good idea. Reminds me way too much of keycard hunting in the original doom. Honestly there are plenty of ways to make a map more interesting than adding this sort of pseudo-puzzle. Really, things like swords bashing or prying things will not make any player save for the most nit-picky even bat an eye. This sort of thing is not an immersion breaker. I can recall bashing crates into little splinters with a baton or a knife in Deus Ex, and not even noticing.

 

The case FOR having a crowbar, and I think the reason that so many extra gadgets and tools are being suggested is because variety is good!! For the very same reason that it is important to have more than one kind of guard walking around, or all sorts of readables strewn around, or many different kinds of glasses, etc, it may be important to add more tools for the use of the thief.

 

While adding all sorts of seemingly useless inventory items may seem like a worthless investment, having the OPTION for the player to choose from a big list of items that do similar things with little differences will actually add immersion because it allows a map to be tackled by players with more diverse playing styles.

 

Really the only difference between a crowbar and a sword has to be in programming terms is that it deals blunt damage, is more effective at prying, and makes a different noise when it hits stuff, but it might be nice to have in there just because it's something to CHOOSE.

 

I don't know if the same is true for everyone else, but some of my favorite gaming moments take place in the planning stages, like in rainbow six, before the mission you outfit your squad with different kinds of armours, guns, equipment, etc.

 

TDP and TMA actually kind of deprive players a little bit of this joy...I actually think I skipped the buying stage a lot because it didn't seem like there was anything fun to buy. Just the same old stuff.

Edited February 24, 2006 by Cyberwolf

[sparhawk]

Really the only difference between a crowbar and a sword has to be in programming terms is that it deals blunt damage, is more effective at prying, and makes a different noise when it hits stuff, but it might be nice to have in there just because it's something to CHOOSE.

 

That's exactly my opinion also. A gameworld feels more immersive when more options are available, because it's easier to relate to the realworld. I remember that it is really frustrating to play games where the programmers choose the way of the player by limiting options. For example, in an adventure you you must get a key from behind the fridgerator. I find a broomstick, so it would be a realistic option to use that stick and push the key until I have it. But the programmer choose to give you only one solution which is you have to find some rope, tie it to magnet and get it this way. This is also a realistic way, but the lack of option is frustrating because it makes the other solution feel arbitrary.

[Springheel]

I think the reason that so many extra gadgets and tools are being suggested is because variety is good!!

 

I disagree entirely. Variety is not good (for player tools) when multiple objects do exactly the same thing. All it does is bloat the player's inventory. If there's no difference between, say, a poison dart and a gas arrow, then deciding which one to use doesn't add anything to the game. It's like having both vine arrows and rope arrows in your inventory when you encounter a wooden surface--does it add anything to your experience that you can choose which one to use? Or imagine a typical FPS that gives you six different pistols that all fire the same ammo and do the same damage. Does it add anything to your experience or does it just create clutter?

 

Variety IS good when it helps make the game world a more believable place, but that goal must always be balanced with good gameplay. We didn't want to give our thief chloroform--even though it is a believable option--because that would damage the intrinsic game mechanic of blackjacking, for example.

[sparhawk]

Obviously it doesn't add anything to the game if you choose between the rope and the vine arrow in the same situation. But it definitely adds to it, if the mapper creates an FM where the player is a pagan that wants to do some revenge and he has a vine arrow in his equipment instead of a rope arrow.

I don't say we need to support each and every scenario and we have to cut the line somewhere, but this doesn't mean that varietey adds nothing. The player is not the only part that has to choose, it's obviously on all accounts.

[Cyberwolf]

I agree that adding multiple items with the exact same properties and a slightly different look is a bad thing. For the specific example of the crowbar, though, I think it is different enough from the sword that it should be considered.

 

Anyhow, of extremely higher importance than just randomly adding extra items to the game, is the way that the entire structure of the items/weapons/ai systems will allow 3rd party mappers and modders to add this sort of content later. I say focus much more on making the game mechanics work solidly with the items you are currently planning on, and if it is implemented smoothly, adding new content should be a snap, am I correct?

[jtbalogh]

Great ideas. Meanwhile, may I suggest to keep the thread focused on adjusting gameplay mechanics. Not just creating similar objects (because FMs may do that anyway). Less variety in inventory can be balanced with more variety in situations that use existing inventory.

 

... I say focus much more on making the game mechanics ...

Sounds good to me. IMHO, the sword is enough to bash crates, doors, and obstacles on land or in water. An FM designer will later reskin a weapon to look like a crowbar, if desired. Or simply leave the crowbar as inventory item and use it like keys on a crate, door, or obstacle. Or maybe use a broom to increase frobbing distance and not just use as junk (as sparhawk suggested).

 

Edit:

For safety, objects that can be used should not also have to be thrown. Only drop or leave in permanent inventory. Not the players fault to use the broom and frob an object but the broom ends up thrown a mile away instead For some items, the right mouse button is already for using, so throwing is a no no. In addition, all weapons in the weapon inventory are shown as usual and can not be thrown, dropped, or frobbed. But seeing the same weapons in the item inventory too could allow it be thrown, dropped or frobbed. This was the question of the original thread ...

Edited February 24, 2006 by jtbalogh

[Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat]

It's round about this time that I should be congratulated for being the only person on the internet never to have played either of the Half Life games, and never will.

 

I've never played Half life 1 or 2. Because I recently (1 year ago) started playing Doom 3, (first level) I decided to try out half life 2 also. But I can't let myself play a sequel without playing the original (and I don't like people who started with T2), so I bought myself a copy of Half Life 1. It's still sitting there, until I get some time.

 

My two cents: I love the idea of a crowbar in the Thief's kit, a small one like my car stereo stealing buddies used to carry in their bookbags, only about a foot long or so. Very Thiefy stuff. Great for gouging out nails and bolts and cranking open grates and treasure chests.

 

A sword could shatter or snap if used as a crowbar, if its really flexible it will simply bend like a rapier and not apply much leverage to the obstacle. The crowbar could serve as a crude weapon as well in a pinch.

 

Speaking of the Thief in water, heres are some completely unrelated articles!

 

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c...SPGQLHB69I1.DTL

 

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...6lr%3D%26sa%3DN

 

the divers with the giant squid wore "armoured swimsuits" or some such thing. Garrett should get one.

 

To the best of my knowledge, swords were very brittle when it came to bending, because of the way they manufactured them back then. You could snap one that was laying on the ground just by stomping on the blade close to the hilt.

 

I agree. It is unacceptable to use a sword for prying anything bigger than very small because of the materials used. It's not hard to find out for sure though. Somewhere there is easily accessible information regarding the alloys used in swords and somewhere else the dimensions of them. It is then a simple matter to calculate using simple mechanics which ones will break when prying a sewer lid and which ones when prying a bank vault or a small chest.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puddling_furnace

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_welding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer_Process

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arming_sword

 

I disagree entirely. Variety is not good (for player tools) when multiple objects do exactly the same thing. All it does is bloat the player's inventory. If there's no difference between, say, a poison dart and a gas arrow, then deciding which one to use doesn't add anything to the game. It's like having both vine arrows and rope arrows in your inventory when you encounter a wooden surface--does it add anything to your experience that you can choose which one to use? Or imagine a typical FPS that gives you six different pistols that all fire the same ammo and do the same damage. Does it add anything to your experience or does it just create clutter?

 

Variety IS good when it helps make the game world a more believable place, but that goal must always be balanced with good gameplay. We didn't want to give our thief chloroform--even though it is a believable option--because that would damage the intrinsic game mechanic of blackjacking, for example.

 

When there is a natural cause to variety then it is indispensible. example: you took your normal sword with you like any gentleman and went out at night to rob the rich. You discover a slab of granite covering something interesting in the yard, and go to the shed to take a crowbar. example: you must travel to a neighbouring country and obviously the hammers won't let you onto the locomotive with a big crowbar because you're obviously not a builder. you take a tiny one or none at all and rely on your sword for most things and hope you can find one on the spot when you'll need one. example: you must travel to a remote lodge of a nobleman by train then by cab where you will stay for a day and you will both depart by coach to the port for another country. you shouldn't wear obvious weapons so as not to appear suspicious. you take a canesword. but while asleep on the ship it was stolen along with your luggage. you walk into a cabin with swords on the wall and overhear a conversation. The person notices you heard him and charges towards you with his sword drawn. you grab a short rapier from the wall and manage to defend yourself because of years of practice on haunts (haunt stadium, etc).

 

Obviously it doesn't add anything to the game if you choose between the rope and the vine arrow in the same situation. But it definitely adds to it, if the mapper creates an FM where the player is a pagan that wants to do some revenge and he has a vine arrow in his equipment instead of a rope arrow.

I don't say we need to support each and every scenario and we have to cut the line somewhere, but this doesn't mean that varietey adds nothing. The player is not the only part that has to choose, it's obviously on all accounts.

 

For 10 hours an artist spends making a crowbar model, a programmer spends 100 hours implementing the appropriate physics and interaction.

[Springheel]

It's not hard to find out for sure though. Somewhere there is easily accessible information regarding the alloys used in swords and somewhere else the dimensions of them. It is then a simple matter to calculate using simple mechanics which ones will break when prying a sewer lid and which ones when prying a bank vault or a small chest.

 

Which, in the end, just tells us whether it's realistic or not. But that's not really the most significant issue. Using a garotte or chloroform on a helmeted guard is far more realistic than knocking him out with a blackjack. But adding those extra tools to the game just causes feature creep. It doesn't improve the gameplay at all.

 

For 10 hours an artist spends making a crowbar model, a programmer spends 100 hours implementing the appropriate physics and interaction.

 

Well then, if we were to try and make all the items in your examples above (canesword, rapier, big crowbar, small crowbar), then by your calculations that would be 440 hours of work. Assuming the people involved spend four hours a day every day working on the mod (unlikely), then that's 110 days to finish 4 pieces of equipment.

 

I don't know about you, but I'd like to actually play some TDM missions before the end of the decade.

[sparhawk]

Obviously this 10:100 estimate is quite wrong. You wouldn't take 110 days for them, especially when they are so close in functionality.

[OrbWeaver]

Besides, you could accomplish a hell of a lot more than a weapon with 100 hours of competent developer time.

[Springheel]

Yeah, I know. I was just trying to illustrate a point.

[Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat]

I don't know about you, but I'd like to actually play some TDM missions before the end of the decade.

 

I don't mind waiting. I can defer my gratification by years.

 

Yeah, I know. I was just trying to illustrate a point.

 

Good point.