Cave Models

[PinkDot]

I'm not able to work on the models currently, but I still can think about it.. (read: I can't stop thinking about it... ), so I'm coming with the idea of cave models.

 

I don't know Radiant's capabilities of making more organic structures yet, so could you tell me if it's possible to make believably looking rocks and caves with just brushes and patches?

 

If not then I could do in a future set of cave models - diffrent cave chambers and passages with several standard shaped "entrances" and "exits", so they could match each other. This way we could make in quite quick and simple way large system of cave tunnels. I'd also make some stalagmites, stalactites and rock columns to fill the cave interiors.

 

Do you think it's the right approach to building caves in this engine? If yes, then I would make some concept sketches before I'd start it.

[New Horizon]

Do you think it's the right approach to building caves in this engine? If yes, then I would make some concept sketches before I'd start it.

 

Yes, some cave models would be highly welcomed. I think if they're in chunks, then an FM author should be able to combine them in various ways with brushes as well. Should allow for quite a bit of variety.

[Springheel]

Yeah, there are already a few cave models in the default D3 models. I think that would be a neat idea.

 

Are you close to uploading the graveyard models? I don't want to rush you, but my worst nightmare when it comes to the mod is people working on things for months, showing great screenshots, and then vanishing due to unforseen circumstances without ever uploading them.

[OrbWeaver]

Do you think it's the right approach to building caves in this engine? If yes, then I would make some concept sketches before I'd start it.

 

Although it is sort of possible to do caves purely in the editor, they tend to look fairly blockish (like Cragscleft in Thief) -- using models is definitely the best way to produce realistic caves.

 

Are you close to uploading the graveyard models? I don't want to rush you, but my worst nightmare when it comes to the mod is people working on things for months, showing great screenshots, and then vanishing due to unforseen circumstances without ever uploading them.

 

I agree. PinkDot, why not upload the graveyard models as they are completed? I understand (partially) the desire to present a finished work in one go, but if you get hit by a bus tomorrow the mod is left with nothing.

[PinkDot]

Are you close to uploading the graveyard models? I don't want to rush you, but my worst nightmare when it comes to the mod is people working on things for months, showing great screenshots, and then vanishing due to unforseen circumstances without ever uploading them.

I agree. PinkDot, why not upload the graveyard models as they are completed? I understand (partially) the desire to present a finished work in one go, but if you get hit by a bus tomorrow the mod is left with nothing.

I know, sorry about that delaying but at this moment I have to focus on some other things. To finish them I have to make at least few more textures with inscriptions, some collision meshes and all skin and material declarations and test them ingame, which would take a while... So please be patient - I have one week free between Christmas and New Year's Day and that's the time I'm planning to do it.

And don't worry about me vanishing. Unless I'm killed or something I'm going to stick to this mod for a long while (at least to its release date). Oh, and I cycle with helmet, cycling vest and red flashing lights on, so hopefully buses are not the problem neither.

 

Yeah, there are already a few cave models in the default D3 models.

I have to take a look at them to see how they're done. I wonder if the path system is so flexible to allow AI walking on uneven surfaces.

[Gildoran]

AI can walk on uneven surfaces, but as far as I know, it's the brushes that determine where they can walk. I have no idea if monsterclip is works on models (I doubt it, since I'm under the impression it doesn't work for patches) or if the mapper would end up needing to manually monsterclip the area around the caves.

[PinkDot]

If models doesn't block AI from moving into, then it sounds a bit impossible for me to make some more organic terrains like caves...

I think I don't understand something - currently AI can't walk into tables and other props, so can't we use the same method of determining where AI can walk or not for cave models?

[New Horizon]

I think we're going to look into a way to allow for easier obstacle avoidance...just don't know if it's possible, or where it is in development.

[Springheel]

I think I don't understand something - currently AI can't walk into tables and other props, so can't we use the same method of determining where AI can walk or not for cave models?

 

The problem is that AI don't include models in their obstacle-avoidance calculations, so they won't pathfind around them. That would be a problem for a stalgmite or pile of rocks in the middle of a cave, but I'm not sure how that affects the cave walls. I would suspect that AI wouldn't try to pathfind through a wall if there was nothing on the other side, but I don't know. You could test it pretty easily with a cube model though.

 

From my (not very thorough) research into how D3 did it, it looked like they built traditional brush rooms, and then used models to camoflogue the walls and make them look less blocky.

[Gildoran]

The usual way is to place the model, then add simplified monsterclip rooms made out of brushes. Keep in mind they don't have to perfectly match the model; I would probably put the floors under the model (so the monster uses the cave floor to determind its height), but place the walls slightly inward. Then again, I don't really have much experience with AIs... this is only what I've read from the Q4 SDK site.

[Ishtvan]

Yeah, you have to place monsterclip brushes inside models if you want AI to navigate around them. I don't think there are any plans to change this in the SDK. We would like to, but it requires access to map compiling and the AAS compiler, which is not in the SDK.

[New Horizon]

I wonder if it might be possible to do something in Dark Radiant to slightly automate this? When placing a model, have a 'monsterclip' checkbox that can be ticked off. If there is a tick in the box, DR would draw a monsterclip textured brush around...or inside the model. Similar to the ai navigation options in T3...just eliminates the need to have the author physically draw these for every model.

[Crispy]

I can see that working for statues and gravestones and so on. Caves are trickier, depending on how they're constructed. If the entire cave is one big model with a hole in the middle of it, then you can't just create a monsterclip brush that encompasses it, or AI won't be able to pathfind through the cave at all. What you want to do is put separate monsterclip brushes around the walls and floor (and ceiling as well I guess, in case someone makes flying AIs later).

 

If the cave walls, floors, and ceiling are actually separate models that the mapper must place together then it might work, but then the mapper has to spend time lining them up perfectly. The caves could be presented as prefabs, but if you're going to use prefabs you might as well put the monsterclip brushes in the prefabs themselves, which means you can go back to having the cave as one connected model.

 

Edit: Is there anything preventing monsterclip brushes from being complex shapes? If not, DR could just copy the model's shape as a brush, apply monsterclip, and place it in the same location. This is essentially what Thief 3 did (unless you told it not to). I don't like the implications this would have for AAS complexity though; it was a problem in T3, and with Doom 3 having airborne AAS areas as well as just ground-based ones the problem could be much worse.

[squill]

making caves with patches is not very efficient. It's better to model it in a 3d app.

 

I usually start with a floor plan of the route and build the area's out of brush rooms which i export to obj. Then i would build the model on top of the brush area's. Kind of like how id software created their caves.

 

anyway making cave prefabs sounds a bit difficult. Mappers are better off with the way i wrote above because you have more control over the way the area's are constructed. With prefabs i would think more of rocks and other objects you can place inside your cave.

[OrbWeaver]

I'm planning to add automatic monsterclip brush creation to the DarkRadiant model selector, but it is unlikely to be more complex than a simple bounding-box, making it useful only for statues, furniture and other ornamental meshes.

[New Horizon]

I'm planning to add automatic monsterclip brush creation to the DarkRadiant model selector, but it is unlikely to be more complex than a simple bounding-box, making it useful only for statues, furniture and other ornamental meshes.

 

That will be a huge help all the same.

[Domarius]

There are lots of cave levels in the latter half of Doom 3 that you could examine.

 

Two different times - when going into the underground mine, and when inside hell.

[PinkDot]

There are lots of cave levels in the latter half of Doom 3 that you could examine.

 

Two different times - when going into the underground mine, and when inside hell.

Can I load these map using console? (if yes - what are their names)

 

Yesterday I spent short while on reading Doom Edit Forum and actually that's sad but true - AAS compiler ignores models. So I thought about making caves as prefabs - for each part I would make proper monsterclip brush, so mappers wouldn't have to build that all from scratch - only the transition parts (I mean entrance connecting with outside or some cellar rooms, etc...) or if they want to customize and make the cave more unique.

 

I'm planning to add automatic monsterclip brush creation to the DarkRadiant model selector, but it is unlikely to be more complex than a simple bounding-box, making it useful only for statues, furniture and other ornamental meshes.

That's a great idea. I just realized why guards in Dram's dinning room couldn't find the path to catch me while I was at the opposite side of the table - they kept running into that table. Such automatic monster clip, which would solve that problem with just one click would be really helpful.

 

AFAIU there is also some texture monster_clip_full or something like that. The diffrence is that it also blocks sight. Or maybe it's called completely diffrent (sorry, I can't remember) but I know, that there is another one for blocking the AI sight - it would be great to make this kind of automatic brush as well...

 

 

 

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BTW: did anybody try to make monsterclip mesh for some models? (just like collision model). Maybe such mesh would be included in AAS compiling process....?

[Gildoran]

I'd be surprised if monsterclip worked with models or patches. I would imagine that AAS needs to work with 3D shapes that are easy to manipulate - convex polyhedrons (brushes). Arbitrary sets of surfaces (patches and models) seem like they'd would be very difficult to use for any kind of 3D compiling such as AAS.

[OrbWeaver]

I'm pretty sure that the AAS is only generated from the map data itself - models are external files which are only loaded at game time AFAIK.

[Domarius]

Here ya go - I don't know exactly the maps by name, I just remember playing through them. I suggest hell, site3, caverns1, caverns2, and hellhole.

http://www.cheatchannel.com/files/doom3.htm

Map List: 
---------
(Use with the MAP command) 

Map				  Map Name
----------------------------- 
marscity1.map	  - Mars City 1 
mcunderground.map  - Mars Underground 
marscity2.map	  - Mars City 2 
admin.map		  - Administration 
alpha1.map		 - Alpha Labs Sector 1 
alpha2.map		 - Alpha Labs Sector 2 
alpha3.map		 - Alpha Labs Sector 3 
alpha4.map		 - Alpha Labs Sector 4 
enpro.map		  - EnPro Plant 
commout.map		- Comm Transfer 
communications.map - Communications 
recycling1.map	 - Monorail Skybridge 
recycling2.map	 - Recycling Sector 2 
monorail.map	   - Monorail 
delta1.map		 - Delta Labs Level 1 
delta2a.map		- Delta Labs Level 2A 
delta2b.map		- Delta Labs Level 2B 
delta3.map		 - Delta Labs Level 3 
delta4.map		 - Delta Labs Level 4 
hell.map		   - Hell 
delta5.map		 - Delta Complex 
cpu1.map		   - CPU Complex 
cpuboss.map		- Central Processing 
site3.map		  - Site 3 
caverns1.map	   - Caverns Area 1 
caverns2.map	   - Caverns Area 2 
hellhole.map	   - Primary Excavation

[Gildoran]

I'm pretty sure that the AAS is only generated from the map data itself - models are external files which are only loaded at game time AFAIK.

It's possible to compile them into the map using the inline keyword, in which case I conjecture that they're treated similarly to patches.

[PinkDot]

Thanks, Domarius! I'll give it a try before I do anything with cave models.

[Domarius]

Cool One level has the usual metal hallways, and then you go down deep underground and reach the cave areas in the same level, so you have both in one level. I think it's site3. But hell and the others start you off in cave areas already.