Using GIMP

[sparhawk]

Maybe somebody uses GIMP and can tell me this. When I work on an image, can I open another view with the same image, but in a different viewmode? What I want is to have a extreme zoom, for working on my texture, while in the other view, I want to see the effects of it as a whole. Working in the zoom mode, doesn't always give a clear picture, so it would be good if I can use two different views.

[Fidcal]

Yes, in the image window select View menu > New view and you get a new image window you can zoom separately and work on either and it shows in either.

[OrbWeaver]

What I'd really like for texturing is a "tiled view" which would automatically display the image in a 2D tiled setup, while you edited it in another window.

[sparhawk]

Yes, that would definitely be helpfull. Maybe we can ask the developers of GIMP for such a feature. I think this would be helpfull for anybody who tries to create textures with it.

 

Thanks Fidcal!

[Fidcal]

What I need with Gimp is some way to dock all its windows and dialogs together. At any time I might have ten other programs open and switch to a web browser and back to Gimp and all Gimps bits and pieces are lost under other programs so you have to reselect each one, one by one.

 

If I can expand on the seamless tiling problem. The one in Gimp and Paintshop that just uses faded overlap is only of use for special patterning effects or possibly for stuff like gravel which could be touched up afterwards. There can be no automatic seamless tiling for all types of images except computer generated images because the problems vary. The easiest would be say flagstones that all line up in straight rows and columns: just crop at the joins then maybe touch up the joins overlap if needed. Next easiest would be overlapping bricks which can be cropped straight along the join top and bottom then cropped along the joins jutting out over alternate brick courses then overlapping those later. Most other stuff it's a matter of using whatever tools and skills you have to merge over the joins.

 

In the past in Paintshop I've only done a few and done it the hard way by copying the image, adding borders all round the size of the image (so 1024 x 1024 adds 1024 top, bottom, and both sides) so the image remains in the middle of an imaginary grid 3 x 3. Then paste the image all around the centre image. Then edit the joins from the centre image out but as little as possible and definitely don't reach half way. Finally either crop around the centres of the surrounding images or possibly copy and paste the near parts of the outer image into the opposite side of the inner image. The corners are the problems there.

 

But what is needed is a tool or plug in that will assist the above. It needs to at least...

 

. Automatically generate the surrounding tiles possibly with options if not all sides are needed.

. Provide options to move these together or independently inwards to overlap with fading

. Have a custom cropping tool that centres on the central image and defaults to its core size and be able to optionally automatically move to the outer limits of the outermost bit of editing.

. Provide an optional on-going display of the above so you can see how far out you are editing.

. Provide a tiling preview [edit] (from the current crop setting)

 

If anyone can add to that or knows of any such tool or have any other tips for tiling or know of any tutorial I'd be glad to hear it! I'm about to attempt a seamless specular map which will be just misty smears to go on a polished surface and I suspect it's going to be hard to keep track of the edge of the changes!

[sparhawk]

What I need with Gimp is some way to dock all its windows and dialogs together. At any time I might have ten other programs open and switch to a web browser and back to Gimp and all Gimps bits and pieces are lost under other programs so you have to reselect each one, one by one.

 

Yes. That is the most annoying part of it. There some other similar open source programs which behave similar, and I never really like it that way. It feels as if you are running multiple independent applications. I much prefer the document oriented view which is common under Windows.

 

If I can expand on the seamless tiling problem. The one in Gimp and Paintshop that just uses faded overlap is only of use for special patterning effects or possibly for stuff like gravel which could be touched up afterwards. There can be no automatic seamless tiling for all types of images except computer generated images because the problems vary. The easiest would be say flagstones that all line up in straight rows and columns: just crop at the joins then maybe touch up the joins overlap if needed. Next easiest would be overlapping bricks which can be cropped straight along the join top and bottom then cropped along the joins jutting out over alternate brick courses then overlapping those later. Most other stuff it's a matter of using whatever tools and skills you have to merge over the joins.

 

The link I posted somewhere doesn't really support this. As I understood the description the algorithm smoothes the seams, so that they match. The samples seem to suport this, and you can define various parameters to play with, to change the behaviour. Haven't checked it out yet, but I want to give it a try as soon as I processed my texture enough to make it worthwhile.

 

But what is needed is a tool or plug in that will assist the above. It needs to at least...

 

That's what that link was pointing to IMO. Did you give it a try?

[bob_arctor]

I'd like a tool that would let you move the texture with wrapping.

 

So you would drag the texture to the left, and it would go off the canvas and come round the other side.

 

Then you'd drag it up and it would wrap and come from the underside.

 

Then the joins would be in the centre of the image, and you'd fix 'em and that would be that.

[angua]

I'd like a tool that would let you move the texture with wrapping.

 

So you would drag the texture to the left, and it would go off the canvas and come round the other side.

 

Then you'd drag it up and it would wrap and come from the underside.

 

Then the joins would be in the centre of the image, and you'd fix 'em and that would be that.

You can do this both in Photoshop and Gimp. In Photoshop, this can be found under Filters - other filters (don't know how it is called exactly, as I have the german version, but you will find it), and in Gimp I just found it under Layer - Transform - Offset.

[Fidcal]

Sparhawk: Been searching but can't find any link posted. If you're referring to Gimp then there are no options with seamless texturing. All it does is make four copies of the image, fade out opposite corners, then paste them back into the corners of the original partly destroying it like below. Yes, the tile is seamless but only because the process moved the 'unseamlessness' internally into the image itself and smudged it a bit...

 

 

Bob: Yes, wrapping would make better sense then you are actually working on the two opposite sides and could even do corners.

 

Angua: Can't get that wrap to work in Gimp. I set it to wrap but I can't see how to drag other than there is a 'move layers and selection' tool but it just drags the image to one side without wrapping. Maybe it means some other tool.

[angua]

Angua: Can't get that wrap to work in Gimp. I set it to wrap but I can't see how to drag other than there is a 'move layers and selection' tool but it just drags the image to one side without wrapping. Maybe it means some other tool.

I think we are not talking about the same tool. It is not in the tool box, but can be found under Layers => Transform => Offset in the image window. There you can specify the pixel offset in x and y direction (or you choose x/2, y/2 which will shift the edges right into the center of the image) and set the edge behaviour to wrap around. As soon as you press ok, the image should be shifted automatically.

[Fidcal]

I see now. I was hoping it set a mode and thereafter drag would wrap. Pity it didn't let you drag the image around with wrap as you need to keep going back to that offset thing and tediously typing in two values as you work around. Just found the same in Paintshop under Menu > Effects > Image Effects > Offset. But it is better than what I was doing before. Thanks. I'll try to rig up a shortcut to the inputs.

[sparhawk]

Sparhawk: Been searching but can't find any link posted. If you're referring to Gimp then there are no options with seamless texturing. All it does is make four copies of the image, fade out opposite corners, then paste them back into the corners of the original partly destroying it like below. Yes, the tile is seamless but only because the process moved the 'unseamlessness' internally into the image itself and smudged it a bit...

 

I was refering to this plugin: http://www.manucornet.net/Informatique/Texturize.php

 

Did you use this one for your test?

[Fidcal]

No, thanks. Looks impressive... The examples look amazing! Downloading.... Mmmmm... Anyone had any success with this at all? I tried EIGHT different textures, all fairly small (300 to 400 x same) and all crashed the program except one tiny black and white 192 x 192. Oh, one other that crashed I then tried it non-tiling. It worked but can't see the purpose of non-tiling; it's already non-tiling. It just moved the four corners to the middle. Huh? Am I missing something?

[greebo]

Yes, probably a good stable program.

 

I already tried that tool a while a go and it keeps crashing.

[Fidcal]

I found another program similar to Texturize called Resynthesizer and I also got Texturize to work on a moderate image. Here are the results. I used a small test image that was never made to tile but one could reasonably expect to be able to do. At the end I did a rough manual job myself in Paintshop using just the offset mentioned here, and rectangular selection plus smudge brush. I didn't attempt to do a great job just a quick one...

 

First the original that is just a phot and not processed at all to tile...

 

 

Next Paintshop's seamless tiling...

 

Next the Gimp seamless tiling...

 

 

The Gimp Texturize plug in...

 

 

The Gimp Resynthesizer plug in...

 

 

My own manual effort in 5 to 10 minutes...

 

 

Frankly it just confirms my original conviction that no current technology can seamlessly tile real imagery other than perhaps rough gravel type.

[greebo]

Frankly it just confirms my original conviction that no current technology can seamlessly tile real imagery other than perhaps rough gravel type.

Agreed, that's why the people making textures are actually called Texture Artists, after all.

[sparhawk]

Yes, but for us mundane people like me, I hope that such tools can still help.

[bob_arctor]

Well Fidcall there are a fair amount of textures that can be quickly made seamless: moss, grass, concrete, wood, gravel, dirt, etc, through those tools. So they have a place.

 

But for best results on something like a tile or brick or other repeating square unit yeah GIMP offset (nice find!) and clone'd be best.

[SneaksieDave]

I tried EIGHT different textures, all fairly small (300 to 400 x same) and all crashed the program except one tiny black and white 192 x 192.

Hah. I had the exact same experience last year. Shortly thereafter, I uninstalled the Gimp and began learning Photoshop.

[OrbWeaver]

Hah. I had the exact same experience last year. Shortly thereafter, I uninstalled the Gimp and began learning Photoshop.

 

I think he's talking about the Texturize plugin, not the GIMP itself.

[Fidcal]

Yes, well the actual crash in texturize gave an error and recommended you restart Gimp but I stopped bothering after a while! The normal map feature in Gimp seems excellent to me (though the only other I've seen is Crazy Bump so that's not saying much.) But it will do me for that. Meanwhile I shall carry on using Paintshop for everything else.

[SneaksieDave]

Me too, I'm not trying to put down the Gimp. The main reason I tried Gimp was for Texturizer, but it couldn't do anything larger than a postage stamp without crashing, so I gave up on it.

 

(a way around MDI mode sure would be nice... I'm sure that must exist??)

[PinkDot]

But what is needed is a tool or plug in that will assist the above. It needs to at least...

 

. Automatically generate the surrounding tiles possibly with options if not all sides are needed.

. Provide options to move these together or independently inwards to overlap with fading

. Have a custom cropping tool that centres on the central image and defaults to its core size and be able to optionally automatically move to the outer limits of the outermost bit of editing.

. Provide an optional on-going display of the above so you can see how far out you are editing.

. Provide a tiling preview [edit] (from the current crop setting)

I don't know about GIMP, but in Photoshop you can record actions and then repeat them by hitting just one key. I think I used to do it that way, when working on textures. I also use simple key-shortcut for Offset 256 x 256 filter - it wraps an image when moving pixels.

[Fidcal]

There is scripting in Paintshop too. However, I've gone off the above idea in favour of the simple offset in the one tile. So offset roughly half the width and height so you finish up with a cross in the middle where the edges joined. Work in the centre only avoiding the edge. then one at a time move the sides across and the top to the middle and work on that.

 

The ideal tool might be the above but you can just drag the image around with wrap while it remembers the original so can snap it back when done. Though in theory if it tiles perfectly it might not matter where it is left. Plus a tiling preview would be useful.

[Tels]

As for the texturize plugin in Gimp, I toyed with it around a few days ago and found:

 

* selecting the "tiling" option would end me up with layers that are completely black, but not connected to any image (so you can select them in the Layers dialog, but not do much with them)

* not selecting the "tiling" option would crash the plugin if I used more than 256x256 (or so) as source image

* sometimes it would crash just so

* sometimes it worked, but since "tiling" was off, the result wasn't desirable

 

I tried it with some gravel and some leaves. For no I have given up using this plugin, I will retry this when I have 2gig (currently have only one) as I think the crashes might be memory related (or maybe it is because I run a 64bit environment - or maybe the plugin is just really sloppy coded.

 

it looks very promising though.

 

all the best,

Tels