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Personally I cant believe this threads still going

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My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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One of Oddity's talents is introducing bitter argument to the most unsuspecting topics. Somehow, whatever it is, it all leads back to the eternal struggle of the individualist, heroic Ubermensch against the pathetic Last Men trying to pull him down by tempting him with the road of lazy conformism.

 

If he watched me brush my teeth, I could imagine he'd find some way I was doing it that would mark me as a sad, comfort-seeking conformist because I didn't make my own toothpaste out of gravel and lava or something. :laugh:

 

Other people have taken on the role of not letting him get away with his diatribes too easily.

 

(That said, personally speaking I often take a similar attitude myself, tbh. I tend to hold it against games and movies to pander to our lazy, comfort-seeking nature as if we couldn't expect better, if it's egregious. I'm not sure advertising the ailment of an influential author really falls into the same category of something to worry about in the same respect, though... I consider it notable that a great series will be cut short before its time. That and I tend to think of TP as "one of us" because he's played something like 300 FMs, the same ones I've played, and liked them for the same reasons I did... he gets recognition from me that other authors wouldn't.)

Edited by demagogue

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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This is why it's important to be individual and not care about anyone else.

Life has preordained that you be a worthless little cog in the machine, your purpose being to serve the greater good of your species as a whole. Your individual life is not meant to have any significance in and of itself.

 

So you say you are an individualist, who doesen't give a damn about anything. But here you are: a part of a community forging a game modification together. You've even contributing a lot to the project. You are an asset to us. (And a good one indeed.) You're a cog in a great machine, serving the greater good of the community. I might believe that you even care if this mod succeeds of not.

 

You speak of you being different in these kind of things, but still your behavior signals otherwise. I'd say it's a bit contradicting, which implies you're probably speaking about these things only for a show.

 

So I'll take this life that was forced upon me and work out a way of living it that seems fitting to ME, not anyone else.

 

-This is entirely normal behavior for most of the people. You've selected to participate in this project, just as I did. Nothing special here.

 

 

Somehow, whatever it is, it all leads back to the eternal struggle of the individualist, heroic Ubermensch against the pathetic Last Men trying to pull him down by tempting him with the road of lazy conformism.

 

:laugh: Yes, indeed. He has read his Nietzsche, too bad it is standard school stuff.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Life has preordained that you be a worthless little cog in the machine, your purpose being to serve the greater good of your species as a whole.

 

It's not even that noble -- evolution works at the level of the gene, not the species. This is why animals are innately selfish and will compete with each other (even to the death) for resources, because it advances their own genes' chances of replicating. If it was about the species as a whole, they would all co-operate and share resources instead of fighting.

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Apparently the gene is even more selfish than that; it just selectively cares about even the body that produces it. It keeps a person beautiful and healthy throughout the prime sexual and maternal/paternal period of a life, but it happily not only doesn't care that a body begins to degenerate after the children begin to be self-sufficient, but it arguably even speeds the degeneration of the body to actually kill it off faster so that it won't compete with the children who are now in a better position to continue the genetic line.

 

Life/biology has preordained us to want to selfishly promote ourselves, procreate, raise kids, then die off as quickly as possible after that. It's society and culture that have preordained us to be the worthless cogs of the social machine (if only in helping others we helps ourselves). Conscious reflection is the thing that motivates us to rise above and be individuals of some value above the indistinguishable collective. Then I suppose the whole trick of life is that all three of these things are on a collision course, and which do you value over the others?

Edited by demagogue

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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It's not even that noble -- evolution works at the level of the gene, not the species. This is why animals are innately selfish and will compete with each other (even to the death) for resources, because it advances their own genes' chances of replicating. If it was about the species as a whole, they would all co-operate and share resources instead of fighting.

 

To further demagogue's last point, when I say 'life' I'm not talking purely about nature, since we no longer fully subscribe to that. I mean the culmination of ten thousand years of society and social programming and tradition and laws and etiquette, which I think governs our actions much more that natural instinct.

That's how we've programmed ourselves. Basically like ants, each filling a little role that all adds up to the greater good of society.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Evolution createt one-celled lifeforms first. Then there where something with multiple of them. It was something different, but it was still part of nature. Why should human society stop being part of nature only because it bends its surroundings around itself?

From multiple cells to extelligence. I know, that's not my thought, but I think it's logical.

 

 

 

 

When you judge you take position and thereby you are not neutral.

And he neutral person would be best to judge, but, you know, to find a neutral person would be really hard, because there always would be the question about who judges, what "neutral" means.

You can see it here: For me someone neutral is someone who takes no position to others but to himself. Of course I can adapt experiences of others to improve, but thats far from judging. Even though I tell what an experience means to me and don't adapt what others think this experience leads to.

If my English is bad I am very sorry. It's not my mother tongue.

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So you say you are an individualist, who doesen't give a damn about anything. But here you are: a part of a community forging a game modification together. You've even contributing a lot to the project. You are an asset to us. (And a good one indeed.) You're a cog in a great machine, serving the greater good of the community. I might believe that you even care if this mod succeeds of not.

 

You speak of you being different in these kind of things, but still your behavior signals otherwise. I'd say it's a bit contradicting, which implies you're probably speaking about these things only for a show.

-This is entirely normal behavior for most of the people. You've selected to participate in this project, just as I did. Nothing special here.

 

:laugh: Yes, indeed. He has read his Nietzsche, too bad it is standard school stuff.

 

Get a clue what you're talking about before posting again, you're an embarrassment.

I made it clear when I left this project almost 2 years ago, that the reasons I joined were selfishly motivated. It was an opportunity for me to hone my skills on a hard project. As soon as I got bored with that and felt it could take me no further, I left for greener pastures.

I'm back for the moment because I think it's a good opportunity for me to hone some character animation skills. No amount of doing something on your own makes up for working on a real project with all the problems it throws up.

I feel no allegiance to the Thief community, I'm not part of it and never have been. I utterly despise the sort of people who post threads at TTLG, mainly consisting of thigns like 'what if yous was garet in real life!', 'what is you favorit benny song' 'how many times does garet say the word 'and' in Theif?'.

 

Also for the record, and I've made it clear in the past in debates here, I hate philosophy - that's is, I hate people who sit around reading other people's philosophy. I've never read nietzsche or anyone else, and certainly didn't go to the sort of school which had philosophy classes.

Try using your own brain, that's what its for.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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I'm only annoyed that I started down this path relatively late in life. I feel like I completely wasted my first 3 decades. It has given me a rather large chip on my shoulder.

 

I feel the same about icehockey! :) Really! I wanted to play as a kid, then I got denied because I was to old by then (already 7) and I frogot about it, because I believed that I was to old. Only now, by chance I started to get this idea again and I really love it. If I had known earlier that I was only to old for professional hockey, but that there are also hobby teams I would have started really early, because I always loved skating. I never liked much about team sports, except american football, but icehockey is really the only sports that I now even go to the arena and watch it, when I can't do it myself. Really a pity, but I have to live with it. No point in whinning that the last years were wasted and that you should have done it earlier, because you didn't.

 

At least I'm not doing the same mistake with my son. :) Because he also likes it, and he is at the proper age to get started, so he got the opportunity. I know this may sound as if I try to put this on my son, because I couldn't myself, but he really enjoys it. :)

Gerhard

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Sparhawk, I wish you would stop being such a coward. If you're going to post blatant insults to hide your complete lack of argument, then don't put smilies after every sentence to try and make it look more innocent. It just makes you look like a cunt.

 

Ha, I didn't notice that one. :)

 

Well, the problem with the internet is that emotions don't carry over so well. I often don't put the smileys to make the sentence appear sweeter, I put it there when I feel it funny. Laughing can go both ways. I can laugh about you and I can laugh with you, but unfortunately it's hard to convey this with a simple smiley. So don't think that those smileys were meant to be friendly, they just carry my mirth about your nonsensical attitude. :) (Same applies to this smiley here, just to clarify).

Gerhard

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Ha, well at last you're getting my point - I don't want to be an average human. You're better off not existing at all than being average. What's the point, if a million other people have almost identical thoughts and lives to you?

 

And why should I care? Whats so bad loving the same stuff as a view millions other? It doesn't change that I like it as well. I never really cared for wether other people like the same stuff that I do, or hold the same opinions. If they do it may be convenient, or even helpful, but if not, it doesn't really matter. If you are individual, it doesn't matter to you wether you are average or not, unless you define your individuality only by being jealous what others have or don't have.

 

I can only laugh about such pitifull attempts of being "individual" because this doesn't look individually to me at all. It looks more to me like the frustrated attempt of somebody who can't get along with himself, and thus always has to look for others to make himself feel superior if he manages to do some little thing better then they.

Gerhard

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'Little amuses the ignorant' is how we say it in English.

Oh, that's interesting. Because ignorant people mostly waste their time complaining abot things that don't touch them.

 

Happyness is the only thing to judge if something is good or not. If it is not satisfying in any way it isn't worth thinking about. What "satisfaction" actually is is another question.

Why should I not be amused about something I can laugh about?

 

 

"That's a serious matter, what's there to laugh about!" :angry:

:laugh:

If my English is bad I am very sorry. It's not my mother tongue.

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And why should I care? Whats so bad loving the same stuff as a view millions other? It doesn't change that I like it as well. I never really cared for wether other people like the same stuff that I do, or hold the same opinions. If they do it may be convenient, or even helpful, but if not, it doesn't really matter. If you are individual, it doesn't matter to you wether you are average or not, unless you define your individuality only by being jealous what others have or don't have.

 

I can only laugh about such pitifull attempts of being "individual" because this doesn't look individually to me at all. It looks more to me like the frustrated attempt of somebody who can't get along with himself, and thus always has to look for others to make himself feel superior if he manages to do some little thing better then they.

We've already established that existence is worthless. The only thing that can raise it a little above worthlessness, and therefore make it worth the effort, is to stand out in some way from the crowd, to do things in the way you want.

If a million other people can fill your shoes without anyone even noticing, then you might as well not exist in the first place.

So yes, I'm not as indifferent as you, and I was frustrated, but now I'm doing something about it. My life and my mind has changed a lot in the last 5 years. Whether I ever succeed is a different question, I'm still not entirely clear just where I'm trying to get to at this point, but at least I'm trying.

That may amuse you, but in turn, your contented indifference sickens me.

We get back to the idea about whether the point of life is to enjoy yourself while you have it. If that's the only point of life, then what a waste -a waste of this amazing brain we all have, perhaps the most complex thing in the universe, if all we're meant to do with it is amuse ourselves with silly games until we die..

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Uhm, if everything is pointless in the beginning (I belief this to) then there is no point in what you think would be best, because it's subjective.

o the only measure is subjectivity. I don't understand how in a subjective view something, you declare as "best" could be worse than something else.

 

If my point in life is enjoying myself and playing games then that's it. You could (subjectively) say, that it's a pity, but that's only your opinion and therefore completely unimportant for me.

Of course there are some really neat things about not spending your whole life playing games, because there are things I can enjoy more or things that I need to do, to get to even more enjoyable things (I need to work to buy food to taste this awesome things), but in the end I should waste my life trying to achieve some abstract knowledge that didn't entertain me (directly or indirectly)?

Seriously, I don't get it. :huh:

If my English is bad I am very sorry. It's not my mother tongue.

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We've already established that existence is worthless. The only thing that can raise it a little above worthlessness, and therefore make it worth the effort, is to stand out in some way from the crowd, to do things in the way you want.

 

We have not established this. It's your assumpation but that doesn't makes it true. I don't need to stand out above the crowd, because I already told you that I don't really care about the crowd. I care about my very own personal life, and wether I think it is a good one or not, but I don't need constantly compare it to others just to see if it is a good one.

 

If a million other people can fill your shoes without anyone even noticing, then you might as well not exist in the first place.

 

Well, that's life. There ARE a million others who can take your place, and nobody, except your friends and parents, would notice if you are gone or not even there. That's a fact. You seem to me like the people from the last centuries, who thought that the earth was the center of the universe and that it was something special. It's not. The only special you can make of it is, what YOU do with your life.

 

So yes, I'm not as indifferent as you, and I was frustrated, but now I'm doing something about it. My life and my mind has changed a lot in the last 5 years. Whether I ever succeed is a different question, I'm still not entirely clear just where I'm trying to get to at this point, but at least I'm trying.

 

Yeah, that's one way to spend a life. ;) Not a happy one in my opinion, but, hey!, it's your life anyway. :)

 

That may amuse you, but in turn, your contented indifference sickens me.

 

Who says that I'm content? Just because I don't constantly compare myself to other people, doesn't mean that I'm stuck in a contendedness which stops me from getting better. The point is, if I try to get better in doing some things, then it is because I want it so, not because somebody else is better. It is a logical consequence that others will become worse while I get better, but that doesn't really make me more happy. If I get better at playing icehockey, I'm happy about it, and also the team finds me more valuable, but even if I'm a bad player, and I only get better in my small way, which may be inconsequential to the team's success, I can still enjoy that I get better. Not sure if you know what I mean.

Same with modelling. I get better at it. I know that you are much better, but that doesn't change, that I can enjoy my own improvements. I also know that, in a few years, I might look back at my earlier models, and think how bad they are, but this is from a new point of view, so it doesn't really matter. At the time I do it, they are the best I can achieve and if this is better then before, than it's something that I can enjoy. If I would always compare myself, like you do, I probably would stop entirely doing anything out of frustration, because there is always bound to be somebody who is better.

 

We get back to the idea about whether the point of life is to enjoy yourself while you have it. If that's the only point of life, then what a waste -a waste of this amazing brain we all have, perhaps the most complex thing in the universe, if all we're meant to do with it is amuse ourselves with silly games until we die..

 

You can make something out of your life and still enjoy it. And yes, I don't think that I'm THAT important that it actually makes any difference. In the long run, even "important" people like Bush or Merkel don't make a difference. It's the average people that make the difference with all their small contributions, even if every now and then there comes somebody along doing a bigger contribution, like Ghandi, Einstein or others.

Gerhard

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Of course there are some really neat things about not spending your whole life playing games, because there are things I can enjoy more or things that I need to do, to get to even more enjoyable things (I need to work to buy food to taste this awesome things), but in the end I should waste my life trying to achieve some abstract knowledge that didn't entertain me (directly or indirectly)?

Seriously, I don't get it. :huh:

 

Yes, that reminds me of the story of the manager and the fisher. The fisher wants to have a content live on the sea, and so every day if throws his nets in the morning, sells what he needs for the day, and enjoys the rest of the day for what he wants. The manager says, that he also wants to live a content life on the sea, so he works hard for the first twenty years, doesn't take vacation and lives quite a miserable live, always with the goal to live a content life afterwards. When the 20 years are over, he thinks that this is not enough to really live a piecefull live without work, so he works another 10 years very hard, and then he gets a heart attack and dies.

 

Or to use a quote from Officespace:

They were talking about what they would do with if they ever got a million dollar and could retire from work:

Peter Gibbons: What would you do if you had a million dollars?

Lawrence: I'll tell you what I'd do, man, two chicks at the same time, man.

Peter Gibbons: That's it? If you had a million dollars, you'd do two chicks at the same time?

Lawrence: Damn straight. I always wanted to do that, man. And I think if I had a million dollars I could hook that up, cause chicks dig a dude with money.

Peter Gibbons: Well, not all chicks.

Lawrence: Well the kind of chicks that'd double up on a dude like me do.

Peter Gibbons: Good point.

Lawrence: Well what about you now? what would you do?

Peter Gibbons: Besides two chicks at the same time?

Lawrence: Well yeah.

Peter Gibbons: Nothing.

Lawrence: Nothing, huh?

Peter Gibbons: I'd relax, I would sit on my ass all day, I would do nothing.

Lawrence: Well you don't need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Just take a look at my cousin, he's broke, don't do shit.

Gerhard

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Anyway....enough of this blabbering. THere is no conclusion to be reached on the subject itself.

The point of it for me was to point out that because I may have wildly differing view on such subjects as the topic of this thread, but it doesn't mean they are any less real or 'right' than the programmed human response the rest of you have.

Don't assume that just because I actually consider what I'm thinking and why I'm thinking it, to see if it's logical or simply what I've been conditioned to think, that I'm doing it to be obtuse or trying to start an argument.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Psychological studies have shown that the most happy and successful people are the ones with the most overly and unrealistically optimistic view on life, while the most depressed and unsucsessful people are the ones with the most realistic view on life.

 

There's a lot of info on this out there but here's a couple of links I quickly found.

 

http://www.grandtimes.com/Self_Illusions.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZiQtTi6_R...84-qzBbpRIF5pX8

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