Character Sets

[Springheel]

Going back and redoing things that have already been done is never a good idea unless it will directly pay off in allowing us to complete unfinished things faster.

 

Artists are rarely ever totally satisfied with their work, and could continue to tinker with it indefinitely. The more I learn about textures, the more flaws I can see in earlier work that I did. However, it's extremely easy to get caught up in tinkering, which really does little or nothing to push the mod forward.

 

If Squill thinks remaking the skeleton, redoing all the weights and re-exporting all the animations is something that will speed up his ability to finish the animation tasks that need to be done, then I'll support it. But if it's just a matter of making things slightly easier for future animators, I think we're beyond the point of being able to worry about that.

[oDDity]

I can help with it as well, and also remodel the characters in way that's better for animation, since some of the animation problems are stemming from the models themselves as well as the rigging and weighting.

Where are all the files relating to this anyway? All the fbx files and maya files etc.

[New Horizon]

I would support this as well, if it can help make the work flow easier on our animators. If it benefits future animators, that's a bonus. What about all the altered characters that Spring has made based on the current models though, will they all be flushed down the drain if you remodel everything oDD? Spring has done a lot of work making alternate versions of a lot of the models. Obviously, we can't do anything for the TOSL map, but if we do decide to pursue this for our own future sanity...we have to make sure a solid line of communication is setup between animators and whoever is setting up the models. A lot has changed. A good majority of the models have been scaled down a bit in size to better match the scale of the world.

[Springheel]

Well, regardless it isn't something we can really do before the next release map, so we have some time to think about it.

[greebo]

Where are all the files relating to this anyway? All the fbx files and maya files etc.

It's in the model_src repository, which needs to be checked out separately: https://darkmod.homelinux.com/svn/model_src/

[oDDity]

I would support this as well, if it can help make the work flow easier on our animators. If it benefits future animators, that's a bonus. What about all the altered characters that Spring has made based on the current models though, will they all be flushed down the drain if you remodel everything oDD? Spring has done a lot of work making alternate versions of a lot of the models. Obviously, we can't do anything for the TOSL map, but if we do decide to pursue this for our own future sanity...we have to make sure a solid line of communication is setup between animators and whoever is setting up the models. A lot has changed. A good majority of the models have been scaled down a bit in size to better match the scale of the world.

 

I'm not actually going to remodel everything, just make some changes to proportions and try to connect parts together so they're more like one-piece meshes which is the way game models are generally done. I also hate the low poly claws that were introduced as hands. It's an attempt to make things a lot easier when it comes to rigging and skinning. The same textures will still be used, though I do want to make a couple of extra guards more like the T2 ones. I can knock up these sorts of low poly models in about a day now anyway so its not a problem.

[greebo]

Any new models from you are highly appreciated, that's for sure. However, am I right assuming that a new rig would be useful for any future models as well? If that's the case, I'd say we rather spend the time on a useful, easy-to-handle rig than on new models - we need to focus on the important things and the animations are definitely more important than the actual models in my opinion. With the new rig, new models are easier to add later on.

 

squill, what are you thinking about that? I'm by all means no competent animator to estimate the amount of work to be done, I can only judge the situation from the project's point of view. Of course, if oDDity says he can deliver a new model in one or two days, it won't make much difference, but I don't know how much time oDDity can spend overall.

 

(Also, for the release we are still in need of that weeping statue - could you find some time to whip something up here, oDDity?)

[oDDity]

Yeah, I just started it today.

[squill]

it always will probably be more work to then you might think it will be, but i'm definitely seeing the benefits of having a clean setup, because we are now running against more problems.

 

You'd just need to setup the base skeleton in motionbuilder and apply any animations to it there. Even if there are animaitons which only exist in maya they can be exported to motionbuilder and applied to the rigs there.

 

I'm not familiar with rigging in Motion Builder other then animating with it. How do see this new rig being setup.. because my own rigging knowledge only applies to Maya, which is not that advanced but sufficied enough to build a simple rig. Maya is my choice of package when it comes to animating and rigging. Will this base skeleton be usuable in Maya or did you mean to do rigging and animation in MB? I'd rather keep the animation workflow in one package.

 

If we do this do we build the rig from scratch? or do we take the current joint setup as a base but without all the extra joints. That was my first idea to create a new joint structure based on the old joint structure.

[oDDity]

I mean do the rigging in maya and then export it to motionbuilder, because it's a much easier package to work with as far as applying animations to different models, and there's no problem with exporting back to maya.

I'd say just build a new simple rig. Hips, upper leg, lower leg, foot, spine, spine 1, spine 2, neck, upperarm. forearm, hand bones. The basic joints you need to apply mocap files to. I don't we need a head joint, since the separate heads attach to the neck bone.

It should end up with a rig of about 30 joints instead of the 70 there currently is, and if I try to make the meshes more or less one piece, that avoids extra bones as well and make rigging and skinning quicker and simpler.

 

I'd do it myself but I'm not sure these days about any dark mod or doom specific things that need to be added to the rig.

Also, all this simplifying of meshes and rigs is going to help with framerates as well.

[Springheel]

I'd say just build a new simple rig. Hips, upper leg, lower leg, foot, spine, spine 1, spine 2, neck, upperarm. forearm, hand bones. The basic joints you need to apply mocap files to. I don't we need a head joint, since the separate heads attach to the neck bone.

 

Currently the heads do attach to the head joint, though it looks like that can be controlled from the def file. It would be worth checking.

 

If this is to be done, it might also be helpful to include a couple dummy joints--one or two on the hips and one on the back--for attaching weapons and other items to.

 

and if I try to make the meshes more or less one piece,

 

Not sure exactly what you mean here, but keep in mind that we need the meshes separated by armour type if nothing else, so that they can be given separate materials. It's also helpful if accessories like pauldrons are made separate meshes so they can be turned off with a nodraw skin.

[oDDity]

You don't need separate meshes for different materials, just separate surfaces. It's also easier just to have a separate base model without pauldrons that can be textured for various characters.

[Springheel]

You don't need separate meshes for different materials, just separate surfaces.

 

Don't you have to separate the surfaces into separate meshes for export to md5mesh? Neither exporter I've used has allowed you to have more than one surface per mesh.

[oDDity]

Its a long time since I did it, but I don't remember that restriction.

[greebo]

From what I gathered you'll at least need an "origin" bone for in-game figures. Just thought I mention it here, but I guess you guys knew that already.

[Springheel]

Where are all the files relating to this anyway? All the fbx files and maya files etc.

 

Oh, btw, I've been using the Lightwave-to-md5mesh exporter for all the models I've been working on (just the citywatch and some heads thus far), so any maya files for them will be out of date. I'll upload the updated versions later today.