Elite Guards (version 1)

[sparhawk]

Well, it would be possible. Just don't know how much work this will be. I thought the same when I read about that morning star. I think it would look pretty cool, though, to have that as a weapon.

[sparhawk]

I still prefer a shortish fighting halberd for the city watch elite as well as a broad sword and bow. I think a small buckler attached to their left forearm with two straps would still allow them to shoot a bow wouldn't it?

I think the huns used such a shield. It was strapped to the arm, so they could use a bow as well as using the buckler, while riding.

[Springheel]

A morning star would require physics to animate correctly, I'm not sure if this is possible.

 

No, not a flail (although that's my favourite weapon of all time). I agree, a ball and chain would be too complicated.

 

A morningstar is basically a combination between a club and a spiked mace. It looks something like this (but not so dainty).

 

 

It could use the same animation as the hammer attack.

 

As for the buckler, yes, you could shoot a bow with one. It would be cool if we could do that for the elite guards, and have them be able to block attacks with it.

[oDDity]

These are morning stars, it's another name for a flail or ball and chain.

That thing looks more like something a chimney sweep would use, I think a halberd like this would be much more menacing.

Edited January 18, 2005 by oDDity

[Springheel]

Actually that's a common misconception. A morningstar and a flair are two separate things, though a lot of people confuse the two. If you do a search for 'morningstar' online you'll find far more flails. Morningstars are quite vicious weapons, though that one isn't the best picture.

 

A poleaxe would be fine too, I suppose. Or maybe we should just stick to swords. More flexibility in the kinds of moves they can do (I'd like to see a Thief parry an upwards thrust to the heart).

[oDDity]

That site I linked to makes those morning stars, so I think they know what they're talking about)

[Ishtvan]

I could see Halberds being used for general 'regulating' duties around the city. I thought they were primarily an anti-cavalry weapon, but I was reading that they could also be used nonlethally to trip people or knock them down, which makes sense for a 'riot police' force. And lets face it, a line of guards with halberds lowered at you is a pretty good way to stop rioting. In 17th century America, they were also carried by sergeants as a sign of rank and to make large signalling motions on the field of battle. [ref: http://www.apva.org/ngex/c9halb.html ]

 

For the elite city watch who are like 'riot police,' (if we're still making that distinction... can't keep track anymore! ), a halberd + backup shortsword would make a lot of sense.

 

For manor guards/elite mercenaries that are protecting indoor areas, I would think they'd want to take less heavy weapons that they could readily use in close quarters, and could easily run with. I guess no one else likes the rapier + dagger idea. They could have a buckler on the dagger-arm too. Or one of those crazy bucklers with spikes to inflict damage.

Edited January 18, 2005 by Ishtvan

[Springheel]

For the elite city watch who are like 'riot police,' (if we're still making that distinction... can't keep track anymore!  ), a halberd + backup shortsword would make a lot of sense.

 

But as was said earlier, a halberd is very tricky to code. Think of all the collision issues just in getting the AI to swing it. We might be able to do it, but it would require some extra work. Better to save that for a later release. As long as we have sword attacks and hammer attacks, that gives us a lot of variety of possible weapons (axes, maces, clubs, morningstars, etc).

 

As for the rapier idea, it just doesn't fit very well with the style of the rest of the weapons and armour. As Rob Roy showed us all, rapiers just don't stand up to heavier weapons.

[Ishtvan]

I guess for indoors any 1 handed weapon + buckler with spikes would do. I just don't think of 2 handed weapons when I think of combat in extremely close quarters.

[oDDity]

There is no extra coding issues with halberds. they can be made to clip through walls to avoide collision problems in small spaces, and they don't have to be made VERY long. We don't have to include trips in the initial release either, that was just an idea.

[Ishtvan]

Would it be more realistic tho to actually apply a long, cyllindrical clip model to it (shouldn't be TOO hard right? if we're already doing it for swords?), then if the AI DO end up hitting the walls a lot, this will be their cue to drop the halberd and whip out the shortsword?

 

[edit - we can also make them choose between attacks, overhead slash, diagonal slash, piercing. If they hit walls with one, switch to the other attack. We're probably going to need to do multiple attacks for swords anyway. Also, someone posted a tutorial for multiple attacks on Doom3world.org http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=8291 despite the name, it's not about pressing a button to alternate fire your weapon, it's more about alernative attacks.]

 

Personally I'd be pissed off if an AI hit me with a halberd when we were both in a 2ftx2ft closet ]

Edited January 18, 2005 by Ishtvan

[Ishtvan]

I guess now that I think about it, that might be a lot to code.

 

What I'm trying to say is, if I were a player, I would be pissed off it halberds clipped thru walls and hit me. That leads me to say either implement them realistically or not at all. If that means putting them off 'till the next release, then so be it.

[Springheel]

Well, this will be something to consider for later...I think we're just trying to get swords and blackjacks working for the first milestone. We can look at adding longer weapons after that. I'd love the appearance of guards standing with their halberds at their sides, but I have some concerns about how well it would play out in practice.

[kfmccall]

It would be fun to see a guard take a swing at you with his halberd and have his weapon stick into a wooden wall nearby. We could stick in some concerned and fearful facial expressions the poor sod would likely express moments before his doom.

[Ishtvan]

Met his doom?? I don't think so for an elite guard. That'd be when he dropped his halberd, drew the shortsword and stuck you. Or parried your strike with his vambraces then punched you in the face repeatedly... these guys don't mess around.

[sparhawk]

weapons (axes, maces, clubs, morningstars, etc).

 

As for the rapier idea, it just doesn't fit very well with the style of the rest of the weapons and armour. As Rob Roy showed us all, rapiers just don't stand up to heavier weapons.

A sword will give us the basic moves for many weapons, but battleaxes and morningstars would require differnt moves. A morning star requires different moves because of the physics involved, and a battlaxe because of it's mass and teh size of it's blade. But still with flails, hammers and other clublike weapons the moves should be the same as for a sword which will give us already a variety.

 

And rapiers will still require a VERY different fighting style than swords do.

[sparhawk]

I'd love the appearance of guards standing with their halberds at their sides, but I have some concerns about how well it would play out in practice.

That gives me an idea what we can do. We can use the halberds as ornamental stuff for AI that is stationary on portals or such. When they start to attack, they can drop their weapon and grab their sword instead, which would make sense for close quarters.

[oDDity]

THe only problem I see wth halberds is how the AI decide when to switch to brodsword, and if they then thow the halberd down, they'd have to be able to pick it up again.

Even for ordamental purposes the halberd still has to be thrown down and retrieved by the AI.

[sparhawk]

Yeah. Well, that was just an idea. Another problem would be the search mod. Would they carry them with them while searching? This would already add some problems because movment must be different.

[Springheel]

a battlaxe because of it's mass and teh size of it's blade. But still with flails, hammers and other clublike weapons the moves should be the same as for a sword which will give us already a variety.

 

We're going to have to have two different kinds of basic attack animation...one for swords, and one for hammers. The animation for hammer attacks is pretty much the same as for any club-like weapon, and could be used for axes as well.

 

The animation for swords is pretty much only useful for swords, as far as I can imagine. There may be a couple of moves that we could share between weapon classes, but not many.

[Ishtvan]

Are we going to have a "thrust" or point attack animation for swords? I know the broadsword was not really used this way, but it always seemed odd in T1/T2 that the shortsword was ony used for slashing. I don't know much about medieval shortswords, but if you consider the roman Gladius, despite what you saw in Gladiator, it was primarily used for stabbing/point attacks (of course it has an edge too for slashing). [Reference: Some guy's paper from a class at UNC ]

 

Of course I don't know how we'd implement controls for specific attacks with the sword (maybe something like what they did in Ultima/Daggerfall/Morrowind, with holding down the attack button and moving your mouse a certain way doing different attack (overhand, diagonal slash, point thrust). I guess this is another one of those things that's more trouble than it's worth and will wait 'till after the first milestone though.

Edited January 18, 2005 by Ishtvan

[Springheel]

Yeah, combat isn't part of the first milestone, so we don't need to go into detail right now. But we're going to be using T1/2 as our guide on the issue, and they had a few different kinds of attack per weapon. That will be something to tackle for the next milestone, I think. In the meantime, I'm paying close attention to how the hand-to-hand combat works in Riddick. It's giving me some ideas.

[kfmccall]

I threw this together real quick, just another concept of more elite city guards.

[BlackThief]

I quite like it, but I think the helmet doesn't fit the helmet would limit the vision pretty much - not a good condition to find a thief.

 

what about a helmet more like this:

 

Edited January 19, 2005 by BlackThief

[kfmccall]

wow that helmet looks badass, lets use that one lol. We could add in some metal supports along the brow and over the center of the top of the head to give it some character. Kindof like the helmets in Springheel's city guard concepts.