Amazing!

[EdLima]

Hey y'all,

 

I just had to join the forum to say how totally impressed I am by this fantastic looking mod. I'm a huge Thief fan, and I'd guess that like many of you, T:DS left me..... wanting...

 

So I'm really excited to see such a talented and motivated group of people who really "get" Thief putting their ideas into such a great looking extensible engine like d3.

 

Can't wait to see what feats of genius you guys pull off next. Best of luck to you all.

 

-e

[Dram]

...say how totally impressed I am by this fantastic looking mod...

Glad you like it so far

 

I'm a huge Thief fan, and I'd guess that like many of you, T:DS left me.....  wanting...

 

DEFINATELY lol

 

...great looking extensible engine like d3.

 

Pity so many people say that HL2 engine is "superior" seeing as everything (save lip-synching) can be replicated in D3.

 

 

--Dram

[Dram]

Oh, and can't forget Valve's gem - Steam. D3 can simply NOT replicate that, it's just too hard.

[EdLima]

Oh, and can't forget Valve's gem - Steam. D3 can simply NOT replicate that, it's just too hard.

Well thank goodness for that.

 

Yeah, it's too bad that relatively fewer mods are being seen these days for d3 as opposed to other engines. I think that the 'mod burnout' that happens to so many people is happening much sooner with d3, since you have to know, as one friend put it, the Doom3-do, the d3 way of doing things, particularly where character and monster models are concerned.

 

Anyway, again, it looks great so far guys. Keep it up. I'm looking forward to this one. By the way, I can't officially offer to help with the mod, but if there's a particularly difficult issue regarding soundshaders or something audio-engine related, by all means feel free to drop me a line. I'd be more than happy to help with any tech issues or questions, although it looks like you all have got it all pretty well in hand.

[Ishtvan]

Thanks for stopping by, and thanks a lot for the offer of support on sound engine questions!

 

Rumor has it the sound engine will be changing significantly in the 1.3 patch, so I'm going to hold off on querying the sound engine for specific things until then.

 

As long as idEntity::StartSound continues to exist, I'll be happy.

[Dram]

LOL, just realised you're the sound designer lol. I had no idea hehe. Man, thief fans are everywhere.

 

--Dram

[sparhawk]

Yeah, it's too bad that relatively fewer mods are being seen these days for d3 as opposed to other engines.  I think that the 'mod burnout' that happens to so many people is happening much sooner with d3, since you have to know, as one friend put it, the Doom3-do, the d3 way of doing things, particularly where character and monster models are concerned.

 

Of course the burnout is one factor, but I think that HL2 created simply more hype than D3. From a game perspective this is understandable, because D3 gameplay is, erm, wanting, but from a modder perspective, IMO D3 beats easily most engines. And also from the technical point of view. I think this kind of funny that people go to HL2 using lip synching as an argument. It seems that good animators are hard to come by, and I bet that making the best use of lip synching is still a hard thing to do, even in HL2. IMO there are other points which count much more then just this feature. After all lip synching is mainly used in cutscenes, but a good game should primarily consist of a game and not only cutscenes. So the overal advantage of having good lip synching is IMO neglectable compared to having a crap gameplay. And if a mod has crap gameplay the lip synching will not save it.

 

Anyway, again, it looks great so far guys.  Keep it up. I'm looking forward to this one.  By the way, I can't officially offer to help with the mod, but if there's a particularly difficult issue regarding soundshaders or something audio-engine related, by all means feel free to drop me a line.  I'd be more than happy to help with any tech issues or questions, although it looks like you all have got it all pretty well in hand.

 

One thing that we were discussing. Do you think it would be hard to replace the sound engine with an external open source engine? Or do you think that there could be intereferences if two sound engines were competing for the sound card?

 

Maybe you can't answer this question anyway, which I could understand, but we were discussing this, because we need special effects to properly implement the Thief soundfeatures which are needed and we will see if we can make this with what we have access to through the SDK.

 

Oh! BTW: Maybe you (Id) could increase the interest in the mod scene for D3 a bit if you do such things like UT did. With that mod competition. I think this could really raise the interest a lot. Especially considering the price they offered. A free commercial licence for the UT engine. Just a suggestion.

[oDDity]

Yeah, it's too bad that relatively fewer mods are being seen these days for d3 as opposed to other engines. I think that the 'mod burnout' that happens to so many people is happening much sooner with d3, since you have to know, as one friend put it, the Doom3-do, the d3 way of doing things, particularly where character and monster models are concerned.

Heh, it was a pain in the ass to work out at the start for sure, but now I have the workflow sorted I'm doing four at a time. Literally). Only another 50 or so to go....the character modelers at id had any easy time of it compared to me)

I love the doom renderer actually, the realism you can get in characters using the combo of duffuse, normal, height and spec is greater than any other engive I've worked with.

[Dram]

Yes, of ALL games I've seen so far, Doom3 (the engine) gives the best results in rendering etc. Once you get used to visportals, making sure minimal lights hit a surface, using patch meshes, and the controls, the editor is really good to work with and in the end makes it all worthwhile - which is what is the most important.

 

I'm really glad ID stays by their old traditions . I still remember Commander Keen - that game was excellent, even today it has it's charm. ID has my respect .

 

--Dram

[New Horizon]

I don't bother buying many games these days but I bought Doom 3 for two reasons.

 

1. Dark Mod

2. Respect for Id.

 

I couldn't be more serious about number two. They are far more personal with their fan base and based on our contact with them during our work on the mod, they listen.

[EdLima]

Btw, guys, let me begin by clarifying that I in no way represent id. I was a contractor there, and am no longer. (Actually, I'm at Human Head now working on Prey, so I've still got my nose very much in the tech ) As to id doing something like Make Something Unreal, I couldn't even guess.

 

Hmm, an open source audio engine.. that's a tough one. I'm not a coder, so I can't really comment on what's possible or not. I guess theoretically ANYTHING is possible, but it would seem like a TON of work to me, because I'm guessing that you'd have to gut the original engine completely and code a new one. You're just opening a bag of hell at that point. Think about how tightly integrated the sound engine is with the world geometry, the portaling system, the animation system, func_movables.. I think you'd be better off adding to what's already there than reinventing the wheel. And though I don't know what audio special effects you all want/need from the audio engine, perhaps you should wait to see what future engine revs might bring, particularly from third-party hardware vendors.

 

On lip synching.. gosh, well if you're a team lead and you're deciding what engine to use based on which game shipped with better lip synch anims.. ugh, you've got bigger problems.. Heh, never mind that you can run d3 at 800x600 with all the effects and shaders on and still be totally blown away visually, lip synch or no lip synch.

Edited April 28, 2005 by EdLima

[Fingernail]

Well EAX HD will be implemented in the next patch, so we hear, which is a Good Thing.

 

And thanks for your appreciation

[sparhawk]

Hmm, an open source audio engine.. that's a tough one. I'm not a coder, so I can't really comment on what's possible or not.  I guess theoretically ANYTHING is possible, but it would seem like a TON of work to me, because I'm guessing that you'd have to gut the original engine completely and code a new one.

 

We wouldn't need to code a new one. There are already some we could use.

 

You're just opening a bag of hell at that point.  Think about how tightly integrated the sound engine is with the world geometry, the portaling system, the animation system, func_movables..

 

I thought you were a sound coder. But you are right. It would still be a lot of work, even when we use an existing one. But that is not the problem in a community project, because we don't have commercial restrictions.

 

On lip synching.. gosh, well if you're a team lead and you're deciding what engine to use based on which game shipped with better lip synch anims.. ugh, you've got bigger problems..

 

Yeah. But with some mods, that I noticed, it seems that was one of the major motivations. LOL

 

Heh, never mind that you can run d3 at 800x600 with all the effects and shaders on and still be totally blown away visually, lip synch or no lip synch.

 

I run it a 1280x1024 with all effects on.

[Demigod]

I must be odd. I have a 6800 gt an a64 3200 and I still run my games at 1024/768. Most of the time I dont bother with aa either af is normaly stuck at 8* though. The game doesnt have to looked amazing to me as long as its fun. which to me at least, doom3 was and is, so is thief 1 come to that.

 

I would agree though that doom3 can still look great at low resolutions

 

edit : oddly enough my desktop res is 1600/1200 as its easy to edit at that res

Edited April 28, 2005 by Demigod

[Dram]

Dammit you people and your hi-res screens! I'm still stuck with a 14". Yeah, it can suck. At least it can still do 1024x768. It's off colour too, i had to mess with it for about 3 hours to get the colour right (in NVidia settings), but now it's all good.

[kwc]

hmm, i'd like to know what exactly you mean with that eax hd extension... does it mean that if you decide to take advantage of it, the sound engine of darkmod will be unseparable from eax? meaning that if your sound card doesn't support eax, you won't be able to play the game properly?

 

sorry for those -silly perhaps- questions, i'm not a coder or anything and perhaps i'm way off with my reasoning, but i'm a bit worried, because i've got an m-audio audiophile sound card, which is awesome and all, but doesn't support eax, being a professional sound card made for recording and all... i'm not a big fan of eax, and so far i haven't missed it, but i'd hate not to be able to play that mod just because of that...

 

anyway, thanks in advance for any answers...

[pakmannen]

You'll be able to play it without a card that supports EAX HD (or any EAX at all). I'm sitting on a Terratec card myself, and I'm responsible for the sound part of the mod so..

[Fingernail]

There are basically two systems: one which propagates (doesn't handle playing) sound to AI, one which will be the vanilla D3/EAX system which makes sounds for the player's speakers.

 

You only hear one, and the other is nothing to do with EAX.

[kwc]

well, that's exactly what worries me... like i said, from what i gather, you're hoping that the EAX system will handle how sounds are being heard by the player, and i'd like to know if that means that on a non-EAX enabled card the player won't hear sounds properly (this has nothing to do with how the sounds are being processed internally for the AI and such)... it would really detract from the experience, not being able to enjoy the new sound propagation system, occlusion and all... i hope i'm just panicking though

[Ishtvan]

We can't really answer that until we see the new sound engine interface in the 1.3 patch.

[EdLima]

There has never EVER been a game that supported EAX that caused non-EAX users to not hear something in game. That's just silly

[Demigod]

What does eax do other than post process the sound?

[EdLima]

That's all it does, Demi. To put it plainly, it routes game sounds through the DSP chip on the Sound Blaster cards. It's smart about letting developers decide how much of a sound should go through, and you can reprogram the DSP on the fly. But it's at the end of the sound chain. EAX is not an audio engine. By no means does not having a Sound Blaster mean you can't hear sounds in game with EAX support.

[kwc]

well, you all seem to be pretty optimistic and seeing that i'm obviously not the only one to prefer a no-frills hi fidelity soundcard makes me much less worried

 

though i wasn't really fearing not being able to hear something in the game, but rather hearing something i was not supposed to... if you get my point...

[pakmannen]

By no means does not having a Sound Blaster mean you can't hear sounds in game with EAX support.

Most sound cards supports some kind of EAX (My Terratec = EAX 2.0). Though this EAX HD is pretty new, so most non-Creative (you know what I mean.. ) cards doesn't support it. (I've seen a Hercules card with it recently, so I guess it's coming)