Rl "water Arrow"?

[oDDity]

Don't think I'm trying to get gel arrows and not magical ones for personal reasons, becasue I'm not,

I either ghost or ironman the game anyway, so it makes zero difference to me what kind of arrows hapen to be shown in the loadout screen.

It's just the general principal that's important. The only reason people want them to be water arrows, is because they were in Thief, and that irritates me.

They're not interested in any argument - water arrows were in Thief, so wzter arrows it is, end of discussion.

[Domarius]

One other reason for having gel - if we have a different explanation of the same thing, it could feel less like a rip-off of the original.

 

Although it does break the "elemental" continuity - earth, air, fire, water.

[Subjective Effect]

oDDity - I don't like the gel idea because I just don't see it working and water arrows (with the special fire-retardant water) is just so simple.

 

I'd be much more inclined to accept some other method but I just can't think of one that is better than water.

 

Please stop with the "joo guys only liek it cuz tis in Theif"" rubbish. We have all agreed that the standard rope, fire and gas arrows in The Dark Mod world should be mechanical. Gel - no. Something else - perhaps. Heck, I'm trying to think of some other way but the convienence of a water arrow that has 3 functions (extinguish torches, clean up blood, make things grow) is just too overwhelming.

[oDDity]

Lol, water arrows wouldn't clear up blood anyway, you shoot a water arrow at a blood puddle, and you just make an even bigger mess on the floor.

Why don't you jist take some tissues with you and wipe the blood away, instead of standing there with a fucking bow and magic arrow drawn.

Makes things grow? Ahh, so now this mysterious water which is fire retardant now has specal miracle-gro properties as well does it?

This gets better and better. You start off with an argument about unrealism against gel arrows, and then proceed to puke out all this crap.

[sparhawk]

It's just the general principal that's important. The only reason people want them to be water arrows, is because they were in Thief, and that irritates me.

 

So what? They work well, the are already known. Don't fix what ain't broken. And we certainly shouldn't chaneg stuff just to have something to change. We have enough on the plate to worry over things that we already know work well.

[sparhawk]

We could also use a foam arrow instead of water and gel. At least it would be realistic.

[Macsen]

earth, air, fire, water...

... heart!

 

"By your powers combined, I am Captain Planet!"

[Subjective Effect]

This gets better and better. You start off with an argument about unrealism against gel arrows, and then proceed to puke out all this crap.

But if the water is magic it can theoretically have any property. And I'm not the one who came up with the growing thing btw.

 

Once more: No-one likes your gel idea (okay, 1 other guy) and if you want to put it to the vote you'll see that water arrows come out on top even after this thread of multiple explanations.

[obscurus]

I'd just like to point out that the idea of a "realistic" thief simulator is silly in itself. In "real life," the biggest part of a master thief's job is casing out the place he is going to rob, which can easily take weeks or even months. That would certainly be no fun in the context of a game. And even if we assume all of the casing has been done ahead of time, the missions themselves would be boring. In a good robbery, there isn't even anyone present. And even if the thief had to deal with patrolling guards, he certainly wouldn't carry around a bundle of silly arrows to douse torches from a distance. There are almost no situations where something like the "gel arrow" oDDity proposed would be remotely useful. If the situation was so desparate that he needed that torch out that badly, then something must have gone badly wrong and the best thing the thief could do is to get the hell out of there.

 

So it's really a moot point whether our thief carries gel or water arrows, since the whole idea is rediculous to start with. Personally, I like magical arrows better than oDDity's MacGuyver arrows, just because it's simpler and it doesn't feel as much like a badly justified excuse for something we know wouldn't work in real life. But again, it doesn't really matter that much. It's a game, and in a game liberties will be taken.

 

 

Well, my favourite thief level was Casing the Joint in T:TMA (well, my equal favourite withthe thieves highway level). I would like it if FM authors put more emphasis on casing out targets. Obviously, in the context of a strory, you can allow for situations where the player has to go in blind, or near blind, and being a master thief, s/he should be able to improvise and adapt.

 

As I have already said, I find the idea of arrows of any sort a ridiculous thing for a thief to use, or even carry. A thief carries as little as possible so they a) have more room on their person for loot and b ) aren't encumbered by various items strapped to his body that might impair his/her flexibility or agility. A bow and quiver full of multifarious arrows is the last thing a real, or even slightly loopy, Thief would carry.

 

But if you are going to insist on having a fire dousing arrow, the fire-retardent gel arrow is the more plausible option on the basis of physics and chemistry, and ties in well with the idea of an inventors guild. There is no need to copy Thief so closely as to have the same type of arrrows thief had. A little less plaigiarism and a bit more innovation would not go astray.

Edited January 17, 2006 by obscurus

[Springheel]

Yes, making the tip full of jelly instead of liquid is truly unique and innovative.

[obscurus]

Well, it is more innovative than just copying Thief down to the last detail. If you want top be really innovative, scrap arrows altogether.

[oDDity]

Of course it's easy to be innovative when you dream up some fantasy nonsense device which might do the job, but if you want to stick to what actually could have been used a few hundred years ago, the options are pretty thin.

[Macsen]

Well, it is more innovative than just copying Thief down to the last detail. If you want top be really innovative, scrap arrows altogether.

 

If we wanted to be really innovatoive we could build a giant statue made of cats with their tails tied together. But this is a video game, and one heavily inspired by another video game, so you can't really expect us to revitalize art as we know it.

[obscurus]

Yes, I can. Rope arrows, water arrows etc are just as silly as a giant statue made of cats with their tails tied together. Probably more so, as you actually could build a statue out of cats (don't tell the RSPCA or PETA though), whereas magic arrows are pure fantasy.

 

The player should have a minimalist inventory, which does not include absurd magic arrows or any other paraphenalia that an even half-way real Thief wouldn't carry.

 

Revitalise art damit. Revitalise! *shakes fist angrily*

[Macsen]

Revitalise art damit. Revitalise! *shakes fist angrily*

 

Proper, groundbreaking art springs from the mind of just one person, we're a team with very different ideas about whats is good and what isn't (as this thread demonstrates). Since no one person can make this mod alone, we have to find some sort of middle ground. Therefore this game is a mix and match of different ideas, not one pure artistic vision.

 

That's partly why video games will never be superior to a good book.

[obscurus]

Well, back in the day when it was feasible for a single person to make an entire video game, some classics of artistic vision did come out. And if you have a very visionary project leader for the game, who don't take no guff from no-one, a game can be very innovative. I guess it will be up to FM authors to do the innovating in the end, as they can take the toolset and 'paint' with it whatever they want.

[Macsen]

And if you have a very visionary project leader for the game, who don't take no guff from no-one, a game can be very innovative.

But they won't listen to me!

[Vadrosaul]

That's partly why video games will never be superior to a good book.

 

Amen! I still find books to be the ultimate medium for pure, unpolluted, concise visions of fiction.

[Springheel]

The player should have a minimalist inventory, which does not include absurd magic arrows or any other paraphenalia that an even half-way real Thief wouldn't carry.

 

If we were playing a half-way real thief in a half-way real setting that might be worth considering.

 

But you're in luck. You'll be able to drop all your equipment in the purchase screen, so you won't have to carry anything you consider 'absurd'.

[obscurus]

Good

[sparhawk]

Well, back in the day when it was feasible for a single person to make an entire video game, some classics of artistic vision did come out. And if you have a very visionary project leader for the game, who don't take no guff from no-one, a game can be very innovative.

 

As a project lead you have to define the goals that are feasable, and you must keep track of what is important. You set the goals (the vision) at the start, and then try to stick to it. If you change direction every time you think up something cewl then you may be a creative artists, but you wont get a project done. Also this doesn't consider that community projects don't work this way, that you have a leader who deefines everything and everybody has to adhere to it. People are not payed and therefore feel no obligation to stick to a project that they feel will not reach what they also want, and since it is virtually impossible to do it alone AND you it's virtually impossible to find enough people in each department that think exactly the same you do, you can't do what you suggest. And this is not the fault of the project leader, this is a 'disadvantage' of the process itself.

 

I guess it will be up to FM authors to do the innovating in the end, as they can take the toolset and 'paint' with it whatever they want.

 

That's ok for me. If we finish something that people can use to create their visions with, then we have succeeded in what we tried to do.

[obscurus]

I was being a little facetious, I don't really expect too much innovation, as nice as that would be, due to the usual issues with group projects. As long as the toolset has maximal flexibility, everyone wins, and then I think you guys can pat yourselves on the back.