Evolution vs Creationism video

[Domarius]

Interesting that the only two people who are rabidly arguing in favour of everyone owning a gun are both American Citizens

I didn't expect anything else, it's natural to assume someone will be patriotic. But I can recognise fucked up laws and bad desicion making in my own country when I see them. Such as the complete lack of support for farms and importing everything from overseas. Our cattle and produce is one of the main things we had going for the country. But I digress.

 

The thing that's bothering me right now is that this looks way too similar to our Athiest vs Religion arguments. People on the religious side get weaker and weaker arguments, and soon stop posting altogether without explanation. I hope I'm not dissapointed this time.

[oDDity]

The trouble is that Ev Vs Cre is a dead argument, it's not even worth talking about, except perhaps as to what's to be done about the wackos who believe it and want to teach it in schools, but they'll never win.

 

Arguments about the validity of guns in 21st century society and more interesting I think.

Also interesting that both set of wackos, the gun lobbyists and creationists, and both mainly Americans.

[Domarius]

Here's the same discussion going on on an Australian website.

 

The article is completely retarded, but the comments are good and say some of the things we are saying here.

 

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/you...ble_not_killers

 

Best comment I've read so far

Nathan Lee of UK (expat aussie) (19 April at 04:24 AM)

To show the flaws in this guy's "research" techniques:

 

http://timlambert.org/lott/

 

In short:

* statistically insignificant sample spaces

* unethical/unverifiable and just plain dodgy maths (2 out of 28 he claims is 2%, when it's actually 7%)

* he has admitted posting under a different name to praise his own works (check wikipedia's entry on him)

 

There's no consideration in his article about the fact that overall clamping down on guns like in Australia/UK/Canada reduced death rates and the use of guns by criminals.

He also neglects that worldwide massacres are committed by the same "law abiding gun owners" he insists are going to be carrying guns that will save people. Out of the 10 or more death massacres only Littledon and Port arthur were "illegal" gun owners, the other 13 massacres were legitimate gun owners.

 

To further put this all in perspective: about 80 people die each day in the USA (1999 figures) from guns. These are in the vast majorty: single shootings.

 

The more I look into this guy's work, the more I'm appalled The Australian would print it. Is The Australian our print version of "fox news"?

 

On the 2nd page of comments you can really see what the majority of Australian's views on guns is.

[sparhawk]

Does it? I'd think that Google and a trip to the supermarket would be enough.

 

Really? If it is THAT easy, and apparently much simpler then using guns, then why don't use these guys bombs instead?

 

What better place than a school where you can count on people gathering in large concentrations at specific times? Who cares if you can only use at the very least one bomb. If you do it right you can take out everyone in the room.

 

Same qustion as above. One would assume that, with all the advantages we should have much more problems with bombs then with guns, but we don't. So the question is why? Something seems to be wrong with your argument.

 

 

That's almost the same number of people this guy Cho fella killed with all his guns and with a bomb there would have been no chance for police to respond.

 

Strange, because the police also didn't have time to respond. As far as I know, I think the guy killed himself, right?

 

I fail to see how allowing people to have guns is stupidity exemplified. It's a question of responsibility. You can't allow the actions of a few dumbasses to dictate what you allow or disallow when plenty of other people demonstrate otherwise.

 

That argument depends on the consequences. If the result has a bigger impact, then more "extreme" restrictions may be neccessary.

 

Say we did ban guns and it had a positive impact. By banning guns you are saying that people cannot be trusted with them because they have the capacity to kill. What action can you possibly take from that point to further curb violence without redrawing that line? Knives? Perhaps then clubs? Where does it stop?

 

Yeah, yeah. The same argument as Nyvar uses. If you take away guns, you all end up in prison because then they will take away everything from you.

 

I mean it sounds great except they already screen for this sort of thing at the airport now. Did you know finger nail clippers are one of the things they confiscate? It's laughable.

 

Yes. Because politicians don't want to make a reasonable move, they just want to display that they are doing SOMETHING, so they just do something where nobody objects and present it as a way of actually doing something. Pure opportunism and cheating.

[Domarius]

Here is my favorite comment from that Australian page;

 

"The problem with gun-control laws is not that there isn’t enough regulation, rather that it is primarily the law-abiding, not the criminals, who obey these laws."

 

Criminals don’t obey these laws, eh? Any more statements of the stunningly obvious you’d care to make? Stretching laws so that criminals are no longer doing something illegal doesn’t really slow anyone down. If you’re determined to kill as many as possible in an area full of armed people, the solution is to escalate your own violence. Suicide bomb, anyone? I can’t see concealed handguns being any use there. Does this mean students should have first strike capability using their own bombs?

[oDDity]

Yes, there are some good points on that page, but when you get right down to it, the simple fact is that guns have no place in 21st century civilised society.

You can make an argument for certain people like farmers owning a shotgun, or there being special pistols that fire harmless pellets for target shooting etc, but there is no argument for a population having free reign to walk into a store and purchase automatic weapons which have no purpose other than killing.

[Springheel]

The whole hunting defense is pretty much a straw man anyway. I don't think many people who support gun control honestly care about rural people owning hunting rifles or shotguns. I grew up in a house with three or four such guns because my family raised livestock and had to deal with the occasional hawk or wolf.

 

But there's a big difference between a single shot hunting rifle and an automatic assault rifle, or an automatic handgun. There is absolutely zero reason to own one of those unless you're intending to kill people.

 

The "they'll find something else to use" argument is also pretty weak. Yes, indeed they might try, but I'd like to see someone kill 32 students at one time with a knife, or even a shotgun. A bomb might work, but as others have said, they are harder to make and are rarely used in revenge killings, since you don't get a chance to see what happens to your victims.

[Maximius]

The whole hunting defense is pretty much a straw man anyway. I don't think many people who support gun control honestly care about rural people owning hunting rifles or shotguns. I grew up in a house with three or four such guns because my family raised livestock and had to deal with the occasional hawk or wolf.

 

But there's a big difference between a single shot hunting rifle and an automatic assault rifle, or an automatic handgun. There is absolutely zero reason to own one of those unless you're intending to kill people.

 

The "they'll find something else to use" argument is also pretty weak. Yes, indeed they might try, but I'd like to see someone kill 32 students at one time with a knife, or even a shotgun. A bomb might work, but as others have said, they are harder to make and are rarely used in revenge killings, since you don't get a chance to see what happens to your victims.

 

 

This is right on the money IMO. True hunting rifles can be used to kill people and can kill accidentally, I think hunters should be made to keep them at secured hunting clubs or something similar, farmers and those who really need firepower can apply for licenses to carry one all the time after a substantial background check.

 

But hunting rifles are nothing like a semi automatic pistol that shoots two shots a second. You cant hide them as easily, and you cant fire and aim them as easily. Hunting rifles and non automatic shotguns are made for game, hi-tech pistols like Glocks or Berettas or military hardware like AKs or Uzis are made for killing people. They should be nearly impossible to get your hands on. Here in Philadelphia, they are fairly easy to get, just go to Virginia. Thats what the gangs do.

 

I'm really really interested in gun issues these days. About four months ago, I was held up at gunpoint about 100 feet from my house while doing laundry. Two young men, one about 18 one about 14, ran up to me early in the evening and put a pistol to my head, took my wallet and keys, and ran off.

 

It really fucked me up. Not physically but mentally. I've had to take medical leave from work, due to nightmares, insomnia, anger attacks, paralyzing bouts of fear, etc. I used to teach in some of the toughest neighborhoods in Philly and I could not continue to return there after the robbery. Everyday I saw things that brought it back, gangs of kids about to get into a pistol fight, prostitution, crack smoking teens, faint pistol shots in the neighborhood, angry, pissed off poor people everywhere. The other night, I was talking to a friend who was sitting in his car on my street and we were interrupted by eight semi auto pistols shots about four blocks north of where we sat. He witnessed a pitched gun battle a few weeks back while talking to a friend and told me they simply looked at the shooters about two blocks down and stepped behind a corner to finish their talk. In some parts of the city its fairly commonplace to see such things.

 

The cops blame the families, as if Mom can stop Junior from doing what hes going to do when hes got a fucking pistol in his waistband. Though I cannot blame the average cop for being defensive, no one told them they would regularly face firepower equal or sometimes superior to their own in the street. The state politician wring their hands not wishing to offend their voters in rural Pennsyltucky, the ones here now running for mayor make big promises, the morons in the sticks refuse to support any kind of gun measures that might impinge on their right to buy countless numbers of guns, more than they can hunt with, more than they can ever really need or use. The arms industry and the NRA have made it their business to propagate myths about gun ownership and US history and have created a ready pool of consumer drones to buy buy buy new guns for their "collection." Not a useful collection, not a practical or historically valuable collection, just a collection to insure that more guns will get sold. Like some people have to buy every Franklin Mint collectible plate, some people need dozens of firearms sitting around. We cannot get a simple law passed in this state to limit people to only buying one gun a month. Only one a month, and you should have heard the hue and cry about "rights" being trampled and gun enthusiasts "suffering" under this burden. Guns are tied into sexual identity issues, they are s rite of passage into manhood for the dullards who need such tokens. And so nothing really changes, children die every week, ten murders last weekend alone and we have broken last years record for Spring already.

 

My last adult education student Maria had a fourteen year old son shot in the shoulder while he sat on his front porch, no reason just got targeted randomly by a roving gang of boys who should have been in school. But oh, the schools are rotting apart, filled with vermin, lacking necessities like supplies of toilet paper and lightbulbs, who wants to hang out there. More fun to wander the streets and raise hell, I would have done the same thing were I in their shoes at their age. Marias boy survived but has fragments embedded in his shoulder and neck. The boy who shot him was sixteen. The problem has multiple causes and influences but one thing is clear: making guns cheap and readily available is one of the worst. But it won't change anytime soon, not until enough well off white people get killed and then we will see some sort of crackdown. Meanwhile, I hide in my house most days, drink and smoke too much, and drive my girlfriend half nuts.

[oDDity]

It really fucked me up. Not physically but mentally. I've had to take medical leave from work, due to nightmares, insomnia, anger attacks, paralyzing bouts of fear, etc. I used to teach in some of the toughest neighborhoods in Philly and I could not continue to return there after the robbery. Everyday I saw things that brought it back, gangs of kids about to get into a pistol fight, prostitution, crack smoking teens, faint pistol shots in the neighborhood, angry, pissed off poor people everywhere.

Christ, you sound like you're talking about a third world country.

Northern Ireland used to get splashed all over the news, and I'm sure people thought this was a really violent place, but I never felt even remotely in any danger when I walked the streets, but where you live sounds like a nightmare.

[Maximius]

Christ, you sound like you're talking about a third world country.

 

 

Some places in this great land qualify, either by the standard of violence or poverty, almost always both in combination. I read an email a few months back about cholera, fucking cholera, reappearing in some urban centers in the U.S. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate and trains more doctors per capita IIRC. People here live in a semi dream state it seems sometimes, ignoring raw realities only a few feet away.

 

A real estate agent was showing a home to a young couple a few weeks back as my girlfriend walked by. Eager to sell the overpriced financial bear trap to these suckers, she approached my girl and demanded in a sweet voice that she tell the couple how safe this neighborhood is. My girlfriend replied "My boyfriend got robbed at gunpoint about a block from here." and walked away. She could hear the women sputtering and back-pedaling behind her.

[Maximius]

but where you live sounds like a nightmare.

 

 

And Im in one of the "safe" neighborhoods, believe me. On the unsafe blocks, people don't talk about safe or unsafe neighborhoods, they talk about safe or unsafe corners on each individual block.

[oDDity]

Ah well, never knew how lucky I was. It may be boring as fuck around here, but I literally leave my door open at night. I never bother locking it. There are no burglaries around here, never mind murders.

[sparhawk]

Wow! The worst encounter I had was with this guys showing their gun off, what I posrted earlier. And this is a pretty uncommon occurence around here anyway. I bet that most people never see a gun in their whole live. Apart from the army training and movies, of course, if they are not hunters or such. It's quite boring compared to your environment.

[OrbWeaver]

A real estate agent was showing a home to a young couple a few weeks back as my girlfriend walked by. Eager to sell the overpriced financial bear trap to these suckers, she approached my girl and demanded in a sweet voice that she tell the couple how safe this neighborhood is.

 

That's got to be the dumbest sales technique ever. You're supposed to select the "satisfied customer" first, not pick some random person off the street and assume that their opinion will support your pitch.

[oDDity]

I don't know why anyone would want to live in a violent shithole like that. Why don't you just move.

[Maximius]

I don't know why anyone would want to live in a violent shithole like that. Why don't you just move.

 

 

Working on it. But for the poor, especially if you are Latino or black, forget it, you can't move to the suburbs they cost too much and the country folk dont want you around either. Pennsylvania has some of the highest numbers of skinhead and KKK members on the East Coast, people think its the North but its a lot more Southern than Northern except for the cities. You are stuck living with killers and gangbangers all around you, I don't know how people do it.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Maximius

[Maximius]

That's got to be the dumbest sales technique ever. You're supposed to select the "satisfied customer" first, not pick some random person off the street and assume that their opinion will support your pitch.

 

Yes, she saw a white girl and assumed she was a dipshit, happy go lucky yuppie homeowner like most of the people who live around here. Its so funny, Volvos and Audis down one street, prostitutes and thugs literally a block or two away. You can see the difference between neighborhoods like night and day around here, its surreal.

[SneaksieDave]

Christ, you sound like you're talking about a third world country.

He pretty much is, when talking about Philadelphia. City of brotherly love my ass. That shithole should be removed from the planet in my opinion, right along with Camden just across the river. They're both a goddamn disgrace. Two of the highest crime (and murder) rates in the country. Sorry if you've any emotional attachment to the place, Maximius. Hope you can get out soon.

[Crispy]

But I can recognise fucked up laws and bad desicion making in my own country when I see them. Such as the complete lack of support for farms and importing everything from overseas. Our cattle and produce is one of the main things we had going for the country. But I digress.

Funny how Johnny Howard always goes on about "The Economy, The Economy, The Economy" while our primary producer industries are left to languish. Apparently The Economy doesn't include farms, or in fact anything besides Australian Working Families (white, happily married, two kids, dad is a solid honest worker who doesn't have any truck with "those lazy good-for-nothing black people, not to mention the illegal immigrants trying to take all our jobs when they haven't done an honest day's work in their lives", and mum stays at home to raise the kids). Who knew?

 

The Free Trade Agreement with the US isn't helping. Apparently "Free Trade" has a different meaning in the good ol' USA than it does here. Here, it means "you remove your trade barriers and we'll remove ours". In the US, it means "you remove your trade barriers, and then we won't, so you get screwed over! Ha ha! BURN IN HELL, SUCKERS!"

 

Not to mention that Australia is now required to implement laws similar to the DMCA because of the FTA.

 

This country is run by morons.

[Maximius]

He pretty much is, when talking about Philadelphia. City of brotherly love my ass. That shithole should be removed from the planet in my opinion, right along with Camden just across the river. They're both a goddamn disgrace. Two of the highest crime (and murder) rates in the country. Sorry if you've any emotional attachment to the place, Maximius. Hope you can get out soon.

 

Oh I have an emotional attachment alright, like a fishhook sunk into my brain. Im leaving this dump ASAP. The "safe" parts of the city amount to little more than a tourist trap anyway, besides school, the museums, a few good bars and eateries, Philly has crap to do or offer. Go get mugged on South Street if you want, its either by the hooligans or the stores, someones getting your money. Everything is jacked up in $$$, everything caters to the $$$ people in town. The transit system is runs by imbeciles and crooks, it costs quite a bit more than NY but its constantly late, detoured without warning, chronically underfunded by the vampires in Harrisburg who think public transit = socialism, and crowded as living hell at times. If you live in the poor areas of town, you may be herded off of a bus halfway to your destination and told to catch the one behind, because they dont want or cant afford to run full bus service. The service to the nice burbs is way better, they spend more money where they dont need it and deny it where its direly needed. I had to stand in a snowstorm one icy January morning because "This bus only runs halfway up the route." and I quote. At 8:30 in the A.M.

 

I've done my part, I've taught in hellish neighborhoods to desperate folks trying to get one last shot at an education. No one cares. A buddy who is a director at another non profit school told me she was told by a big wig director from down town that all these education programs are anyway is a vehicle for pushing people off of the welfare rolls so that the governor looks like a hero to the banjo picking Christian froot loops in the sticks. Might sound like a great idea to some but consider: the uneducated in this nation are swelling in numbers like you would not believe. One in ten adults is illiterate, a shameful number and within ethnic minorities those numbers can soar to seventy and eighty percent. This is our future workforce, at a time when a bachelors degree is becoming the bottom line standard level of education, vast portions of our population will be falling further and further behind.

Edited April 28, 2007 by Maximius

[sparhawk]

Well, that's the American Dream, isn't it? They constantly tell everybody, you just have to work hard enough and you can get bloody rich, without any restrictions, wether you are white, black, or whatever. My father's generation still believes in that crap, and we often had discussions, where he told me I should work harder and safe my money on the bank, and I always ask him why I would do that? To get more bank owners richer? People believing in esoteric crap also tell you a similar thing. Everybody has the chance to reach anything, you just have to work hard enough for it. I always find it quite funny when sombody is convinced about such crap.

[rich_is_bored]

It's a shame we live in different time zones. I would have liked an opportunity to clear up my "Google and a trip to the supermarket" comment before there were a dozen responses to it.

 

What I meant was that a bomb would be easier to obtain than a gun had a gun ban been in place.

 

And contrary to what everyone seems to think, a bomb is easy to make. You can make an effective one with nothing more than a lead pipe, black powder, steel wool and a 9 volt battery.

 

I know. Someone is going to say something about black powder. And I'd love to chime in with some ingenious alternative but honestly, I shouldn't have to. I'm not an authority on bomb making or chemistry and I'm not claiming to be. I just know it's narrow-minded to assume it's difficult to make a bomb from scratch and therefore the notion should be discounted entirely.

 

@ Oddity:

 

I also think its unfair to assume that since I don't agree with you that it's because I've been drinking the kool-aid. You could also assume that I voted for Bush, I think it's the end of days, I love Nascar and that I think the surge in Iraq is working. Hooray for stereotypes.

 

Is it safe to assume that you're a rambling drunk because you're Irish?

 

I've already said that I'm not entirely opposed to gun laws. I just don't think it's the ideal solution and that we should be making an effort to find alternative ways to curb violence in general.

[Domarius]

How can you say that, when gun control is already working so well in other countries? This is like, the third or fourth time you've blatantly ignored that fact, and I fully expect you to do it again.

 

The most violent thing I've ever seen is a street fist-fight. The only guns I've ever seen were my dad's hunting rifles and police with their pistols on their hips and I've never once seen them out of their holsters.

 

That's a random Australian person's view. Compare that to the experiences of the people from the US in this thread.

[OrbWeaver]

How can you say that, when gun control is already working so well in other countries? This is like, the third or fourth time you've blatantly ignored that fact, and I fully expect you to do it again.

 

What "fact"? Where is the evidence that gun control is "working"? There is a vast number of possible reasons why other countries do not have the same level of gun violence that the US has, totally unrelated to the presence or absence of gun laws.

 

(Note that in general I am in favour of gun control, but you're making a huge cum hoc fallacy there).

[SplaTtzZ]

My mate's father owns a couple of guns, mainly a shotgun and .22; i think he keeps them around because they're family heirlooms. Occasionally he takes them out at a gun club and shoots targets or clay pigeons. In Australia the laws are pretty specific: guns have to be kept under lock and key, and there's no way you can get automatic weapons. Handguns can be pretty difficult to get as well, you have to be registered with a gun club and pass a bunch of restrictions before you can own one, or any gun.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like in the states all you need to do is walk off the street.

 

I myself have fired a gun, and have also been shot by a gun. I tend to agree with the consensus here that a society is better off with very strict gun laws or no guns (for civilians) at all.

 

I wouldn't be surprised however, if Australia starts mimicing the US gun laws soon. We're becoming more americanised by the day, I've seen it a lot in the business world. Like these new IR laws, they're really starting to give me the shits.