wesp5

I don't know. For a sneaker like TDM, firing whatever special projectiles with guns makes no sense because it would be loud and alert everyone! But I like the idea of a modern setting and immediately thought of Hawkeye from the Avengers and his automatic special arrow delivering quiver. Why not use something like this with a high tech composite bow? And then add special modern arrows like EMP...

Speaking of sounds, maybe you could find some alternatives for the wood chests because right now they sound exactly like wooden doors when opening.

I would see the main issue with forks besides splitting the community in that you have to recompile and redo all your changes once the core game has some issues fixed. Isn't there a lot of stuff possible without compiling the source just by editing e.g. the def files? Like the extinguishable oil lamps that were discussed recently. That way we could create a mod or a patch that would just work on top of the current game without being a real fork...

This would always be a last solution, but then again, mappers and developers could think their work was used the wrong way with their effort wasted.

I know about that and don't do it. Still the formatting often changes just when deleting large sections of a quote...

Ah, thanks for the explanation. Now how can I avoid that editing the quoted text suddenly removes the quotation setup?

I would be happy with the current mod, but developers and mappers fear that this solution could change gameplay to much in some old missions. So the solution above would be on the safe side and could make everyone happy ! Also apologies if any developers or mappers felt insulted, maybe I do indeed underestimate the gameplay consequences...

Good question! This board has a very strange quoting system. Is there a way to use the common html way?

No, I already have this mod installed on my setup . We are almost there for a global solution, that would make all sides happy: 1) new models for the current oil lamps that have a glass front stopping the player from a quick snuff out and 2) the current models for mappers to use if they want exstinguishable oil lamps in possible future missions.

Well, a direct hit with a water arrow would probably shatter the glass and if I understand it correctly direct hits don't work at the moment anyway !

The poll is confusing because other options were suggested after it was started and I added them later on. Still the people who have voted the new options surely thought they knew what they voted for and did not just vote no. Anyway, I'm really tired of this. I already yielded to the pressure here some posts ago and suggested to add new lamps and retrofit the old ones to do what you suggest. Nobody reacted to that but kept attacking me instead ! So stop it and tell me what you think about this: http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium/under-the-oil-lamp-light-richard-mitchell.jpg

Yeah, blah, blah, we don't need to change anything ever, our mod is so brilliant, better we close the whole improvement thread down.

Oh, just forget it! You don't want to change anything, fine, I get it. Forget about the 7+1 people who want to have this feature or the others that might want it in new maps. They are not developers or mappers, so they don't really count anyway! There is another thread going on here right now to the same extend. Someone posted what he is missing in TDM and he gets jumped all over too because TDM is great exactly like it is and anything new would break all the old missions and you are really bad at taking critism: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/17373-blackjacking-what-the-hell/page-3 If I would have the same view about Bloodlines, there never would have been a plus patch with restored content and the game would have died years ago!

Well, before I brought it up, people weren't even thinking about it so of course I count these votes on my side ! People wanting no changes surely voted no, because this is the status quo right now. Also as far as I understand it, there is still need to change the def files of the static oil lamps. At least this is how I had to implement it myself!

You do realize that there are 8 more votes for extinguishable oil lamps options- or mapper-dependent, which make it an 16:10 ratio, quite more than half the people, for an implementation of some kind? So either you didn't understand the last two poll options I added later on or you ignored them on purpose! Or is the poll "communicating poorly" too ?

This is why I suggested the other solution right above your post...

Yes, I am aware of that, but still a mapper can not control how many water arrows the player has left when he enters a section with oil lamps unless they offer less arrows than oil lamps in the first place. Also in most missions oil lamps come late in the mission when a mansion or something has been entered and it's up to the player whether he has wasted a lot of arrows before that. So I think all the claims that exstinguishable oil lamps break missions are vastly exaggerated ! Now back to something constructive that would not change old missions. There have been a lot of people suggesting that new oil lamps should be added that can be extinguished. That's a great idea, but to fix the original problem that current oil lamps look like they could be snuffed out, something else would be needed. So why not use the current oil lamp models for the new exstinguishable ones and change the current models to glass protected ones like in the picture below, except for no turn-on/off-wheel. This way it would make sense that you can't just quickly blow or snuff them out! http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium/under-the-oil-lamp-light-richard-mitchell.jpg

Some of you misunderstand me so much, I must guess it's on purpose to be hostile . I make a very reasonable suggestion that half of the people here even agree too, see the poll, but some of the other half get lavatorial. Really mature! Don't you think I didn't have to add lights to the new Bloodlines maps that were included into the patch? Which has stealth gameplay as well in case you didn't know. I was not talking about placing lights, but about calculating the impossible to guess ratio of water arrows to extinguishable lights which is used as argument to not include the option because of old missions. And I'm not even talking about missions where you can buy stuff and it's even more difficult for the mapper to judge how many water arrows will be in the game.

Exactly. This is what I meant to say! My impression was that oil lamps are most often used because of their light and environment properties and not because they can't be snuffed out up close. When I wanted to test the fix of the other thread I actually needed to try several missions before I found some oil lamps to extinguish!

Of course I know that, don't jump on me like that ; )! I was still mostly referring to oil lamps which right now are exactly like torches gameplay wise. I was doubting that mappers count all extinguishable lights including oil lamps and try to foresee how many water arrows they must give to the player so that certain areas would be more difficult, which they can't because some players like myself rarely use them. But maybe I am mistaken and you do calculations like this?

I hope not! I continued to make the Bloodlines basic patch more and more basic at the same time as the plus patch restored more and more maps and stuff. As for TDM, I can't yet imagine mappers designing their maps up to single lights! I usually don't use water arrows at all, unless really forced by the map. Or regarding the oil lamps, my impression was that mappers use them to fit the location, e. g. big mansions. I never had problems to sneak by them as such!

Oil lamps? SCNR

Just out of interest, how can this be done at the moment? I only know the useable candles that can be picked up and normally these are standing on tables and similar. Is there a pinchable candle wall holder version?

P.S.: AliminiumHaste linked elsewhere to the TTLG boards which I hadn't read in years. Sure enough someone posted on the TDM 2.02 release under annoyances: "- Candles and such cannot be pinched/dozed out (which should be a really easy feat, considering). Why do I need to waste a water arrow on these tiny light sources when I am standing right next to them??? - Lamps cannot smashed. AFAIK, things made of glass should be very much smashable." Also what is the interactive candles option in the Thief Fixer setup? Something like I suggested here for the lamps?

Interesting link, I never bothered playing Thief again because TDM just got better. But reading the TDM thread over there someone was annoyed that he couldn't pinch out small lights or break lamps: "Why do I need to waste a water arrow on these tiny light sources when I am standing right next to them??? - Lamps cannot smashed. AFAIK, things made of glass should be very much smashable." !