Wellingtoncrab
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Posts posted by Wellingtoncrab
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I am not really in favor or against save restrictions - I would only say if the designer deems saves should be restricted the game design should accommodate it. This is true of all mechanics in a game obviously. I also would not be of the opinion the game is too easy and save restrictions are a way to make it more difficult. Really the only reason in my mind is that they would be a tool to make the player engage with more systems in the game, but in return the expectation should be that these systems actually hold up.
This is not something to take for granted in terms of TDM which I do no think supports it well "out of the box", or other stealth games for that matter. I did not enjoy this mechanic recently in Gloomwood for example as navigating the large map already felt somewhat tedious and I wasn't inclined to take risks and lose progress. Options when you're detected in Gloomwood seemed to be to die (this is before you acquire the pistol, which causes the whole dynamic of the game to shift into something else even less interesting). While you open up more and more access to the save point as the level progresses - this also felt kind non additive as this usually comes after you have already navigated and cleared a certain route - contrast that with a souls game and this feels like a huge deal. That feeling maybe holds up better for ghosters.
The one instance where restrictions are used in TDM works (in my opinion) because it consciously deemphasizes many of the elements that prompt me to quicksave, though it obviously hasn't worked for everyone.
For example undead enemies make the blackjack irrelevant (the unreliability of which is a source of compulsive saving on my part - though this topic seems as controversial at times as save restrictions) and making liberal use of the lethal toolset doesn't weigh on my conscience in the same way. They are also easy to outmaneuver. This meant I was playing in a different way and using more of the equipment systems which are often ignored and letting the game systems actually play out in interesting ways that I personally really enjoyed, but I could see this causing real issues for your preference of play style on the other hand.
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3 hours ago, thebigh said:
I think the Guild site owner watches for new missions getting announced here.
That's how mine was added.
There is a process then to link a mission in the database to your user which gives you a "creator" account.
https://www.thiefguild.com/showcase/creator_account
Then you can manage all of your own missions as well add new ones - though that also needs the admin’s assistance to setup.
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Yeah on ThiefGuild TDM does seem to get ratio’d pretty hard in terms of number of votes on missions relative to T1/T2 and perhaps that says more than the aggregated score. I don’t care much for aggregated review scores really but it seems helpful to players and admittedly TG has been very helpful in navigating my extensive T1/T2 mission backlog as there was certainly nothing like it “back in the day” in terms of a nice searchable database when you were trying to find a mission to play.
Based on the polls in release threads it seems like there is appetite to rate missions, but maybe players are just not aware of ThiefGuild. I put a plug to check it out and support TDM by rating some missions into my release thread - maybe it’s worth mentioning in release threads in general instead of relying solely on isolated forum polls.
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@ate0atethanks for playing and for your contributions during the beta - I am glad you enjoyed the end result!
25 minutes ago, ate0ate said:The only nitpick I could comment on regarding level layout was that things felt very square. I don't know how else to really describe it.
I think this is a very good way to describe it I think - the layout is very grid like with at the most clean 45 degree angles and this is a an aspect I don’t like about the mission. When I was making Iris I didn’t have the confidence that I could carve the amount of interiors and vertical elements without being very uniform and grid conscious and I hope I can do better in the future.
30 minutes ago, ate0ate said:I also had a couple patrolling guards get stuck.
Uh oh! This has been an issue and I think the navmesh needs a lot of work - the latest patch hopefully has some improvements in this regard but I will keep improving it over time - I have added your other comments to my bug tracker.
Thanks again for playing and taking the time to write! It is really appreciated!
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@polygroveThanks for playing and glad you are enjoying it so far!
I am just a normal fan of these games (so much as that is possible) with a normal job. I spent a lot of time when I was younger as a hobbiest in UnrealEd working with both Deus Ex and Thief: TDS, but I could never stick with anything long enough to truly finish it. This is my first actual release, though anyone making a mission stands on the shoulders of giants so to speak.
Anything successful in Iris owes as much to its influences as it does the copious amounts of elbow grease and mind numbing determination required to finish really anything. Patience and resolve is really all that you need.
Which is to say anyone could (and should) try making fan missions if it is something that at all interests them!
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- Popular Post
- Popular Post
"Has there ever been so villainous a perversion of the printed page... As brazen and pernicious a scheme to feed the blossom of youth into the gaping maw of chaos and flame?"
-Concerned CitizenIRIS has been updated to 1.2
Download via the link in the original post or here
Changelog:
- Higher acuity for AI in hostile areas on higher difficulty levels (original AI scripting is retained on the Nostalgia difficulty)
- Improved path finding and fixes for AI patrol routes
- Additional bug fixes
- New and expanded content!
Thanks to:
- @Dragoferfor scripting consultation
- @Amadeusfor editing/proof reading
- Bikerdude for consultation on AAS optimization
- @Klatremusfor copious testing
Carry the light of The Builder, unto its end.
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@Klatremusgreat news! I again appreciate the time and all of your testing. I have to do some more play testing myself and I imagine the patch will be officially out within the next couple of days. Thanks again!
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@Klatremus nice! Sparrow is over in the
Spoilerplague ward
- she had a stool where she sits down periodically that she couldn’t reach and this has been fixed so that console error should be taken care of. Sounds like the Marksman may have actually been “stuck” or his path finding is otherwise busted so I will work on this area next.
I have done a lot of additional clipping and path finding adjustments in general as well which will hopefully keep most of the AI clear of the trouble spots.
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5 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:
Have you changed Ai interleaved settings or think rate?
Yes, given the amount on AI on the map I decreased the distance where interleaving begins. I did not alter the interleave frames.
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@KlatremusI also use front end acceleration and have never had a problem so I am guessing that’s fine. I am not seeing much of a difference in cpu utilization between the script versions either but I am wondering if there is some kind of inefficiency in it that is causing other things to break.
If you are peeking at the console keep an eye out for warnings related AAS (NAV mesh/path finding) or maybe stack overflow if there is some kind of broken loop in the script.
I have been continuing the mission off your save and at least haven’t run into any other stuck ai yet.
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@Klatremusout of curiosity how does performance seem? There was a thought the path finding weirdness might be related to CPU limits and there is a cost to the new scripting as far as CPU cycles
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@Klatremusthanks! if you don't mind throwing up another save when/if you find more that will help focus on where to get the clipping right.
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@KlatremusHmm ... certainly could be something related to saving - it seems to me that TDM players are very quick save heavy in general and the issue seems like it can emerge relatively early in a playthrough. The ghosting play style is rare enough as well who knows how the ai or pathfinding setup in the mission holds up to the ai never even slightly noticing the player.
It doesn't seem to be the same ai each time either - so each time you have reported an ai I have gone in and tried to make adjustments to the clipping in the area. Maybe this means this has been at least a little effective - that or the issue is truly random.
Best course seems to be to go in and keep tidying up the navmesh and keeping ai away from potential problems. I appreciate all the testing you have done - thanks for the patience and apologies for the issue.
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@Klatremusthe condump didn't have much to say but in better news I was able to load this save with the stealth tools mod installed and can see the guard.
He seems to have gotten completely outside the nav mesh (the numbered boxes on the ground) and is attempting to get to this patrol point in the opposite direction (to the arrow). Clearly that is the problem as he cannot navigate without a nav mesh, but not very illustrative of the cause as he has effectively gotten completely encased in a clipping volume intended to keep AI out and it's very hard to say how that happens or why it is happening with such regularity in your playthroughs.
I did a fly through of the map in this state and couldn't find any other AI in this state - but given whatever is causing this occur has already started in this playthrough hopefully if I keep going I will run into some more along the way.
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Spoiler
That would be kingfisher’s journal - he is the pagan overlooking the forgotten house in the plague ward. I wouldn’t worry about any readables missing - those warnings are related to some stock guis I believe where are missing some graphical elements
I have clocked about 4 hours of playtime and more 10x speed observation of all the problem ai patrols since yesterday and so far haven’t been able to replicate the ai getting stuck. If you run into the problem with the newer beta we might have to try looking at a console dump and see if there is anything relevant in it - which we can generate by typing “condump [unwrap] irisconsoledump.txt” into the console for example.
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@Klatremussee anything usual or relevant error wise popping up in the console? (ctrl+alt+~)?
I went ahead and deleted and then recompiled the navmesh and collision data for the map and reuploaded the beta just in the event I am somehow screwing up packaging the mission - this should happen automatically when the map is compiled but it the only thing I could thing of as so far I can't seem to replicate it. Seems like something sort of kicks the problem off as you mentioned in the last version it seemed like it became an issue after a certain amount of play time.
It's hopefully not related to additions made to the script, as it seemed to be inflicting AI in Hollowbrook where this would not even apply. I am just going to keep playing and see if I can eventually replicate it.
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@Klatremushmm … gotta figure this one out. I don’t think the stealth mod would cause any issues. You didn’t run into any on the last version correct?
What does your fm directory look like? There isn’t multiple versions of the .pk4 in there or anything?
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@Klatremusit just finished uploading and is available here
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@KlatremusYep - that is it - Calvin is technically standing in a neutral part of the weapon shoppe. I have this fixed it but yeah pulling off getting to the back without turning off the camera would be tricky. The timing is such that you can pass the camera but it would undoubtably spook the shoppe owner.
And yes the only way to loot a shop is to incapacitate the owner.
Thanks for catching that patch sticking out as well - go that fixed.
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40 minutes ago, Klatremus said:
One thing I noticed is that the weapon shop owner doesn't react to any sounds you make in the back of the shop. Naturally, he is friendly to anyone entering the front, but I still imagine he would react to activities elsewhere in his establishment. Perhaps that is difficult to script, I'm not sure.
I’ll definitely take a look at that - theoretically since the back of the shoppe is a hostile area it should work just like that but in this case where he standing at the counter might still technically be within the weapon shoppe proper so he is not getting covered by the new script.
Hopefully easy to fix by just tweaking the bounds between the areas!
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8 minutes ago, Klatremus said:
Aha! I see what you did with the mysteries of the void there. You sneaky bugger. Any hint to what part of town the other one is in?
SpoilerSearch above the manor of The Rat.
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14 hours ago, Klatremus said:
I could no longer enter Cloak & Dagger's top floor window without a level 1 alert for example.
Interesting - since the area outside the window is neutral on my end I have no issue making this move from the townhouse into the blacksmith window as long as Ian is sleeping. The sitting/sleeping ai seem quite hard to roust, even on the hardcore ai acuity settings but I don't how consistent this really.
12 hours ago, hightide said:though people on the street got mad at me for being in my own house
Hmm ... this should not happen unless the player is brandishing a weapon or something. Do you recall anything that might have occurred prior to the ai becoming hostile while you were in the starting location?
12 hours ago, hightide said:- Some vertical elements seemed like I should have been able to climb them, but I fell and took damage (the apartment elevator chains, the vines in the decrepit manor fountain area). Speaking of climbing, when coming through the wall from the basilica the chain down just disappeared when I frobbed it. I reloaded and it dropped correctly.
- Found some clipping: I walked through the low wall with a lamp in the Corpsegrinder's lair. Same with the low wall by the stairs next to the brewer's in N Slough.
SpoilerI was able to fix everything on your list that wasn't related to the asset from the core mod itself or the voice acting (as that will need to be redone at some point) with a couple of points:
Vines are plentiful in the mission and are not typically climbable so for consistency sake I would not change this - though I agree the elevator chains should be and I will add this.
I was not able to replicate the clipping issues you mentioned - there is only one low wall with a lamp in that area so I am pretty sure what you are pointing out but this was world spawn and I could not clip through it - I put a large clip volume around it just to be certain. I could not find any low walls in sloughgate with clipping or collision issues either - would you be able to point out specifically which one had the issue?
Updated beta branch of Iris have been pushed to link including key drop, LOD fixes and more!
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@hightidethanks for playing and glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for the bug reports as well - I will take a look.
8 hours ago, hightide said:One thing I would have liked to have was a map file I could print and make notes on.
Here are high resolution versions of the in game maps if you would still like them:
Red Rook: Southbridge & Brewbower
SpoilerHollowbrook: Brewer’s District
Why there should be restrictions on quicksaves
in The Dark Mod
Posted
@chakkman
Maybe it’s a translation thing, but what the OP is after was pretty clear to me.
In terms of “freedom” what about freedom of expression? Doesn’t a mission author have as much right to design their missions in a way that you hate as you then have the right to pan it on the internet? I think it’s worth discussing the merit or value of design decisions, but you lose at me the point we start saying authors “must” adhere to your preferences.
Spoonman, author of one the greatest and universally praised TDM missions of all time, now makes bizarre and divisive FMs for Thief that are not for everyone. Is something wrong with that?