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Doesn't he look a lot like the TDS model? But maybe it's just the stance that reminds me of it, because I haven't played TDS since I started work on TDM. The model looks cool though.

I don't see much need to complicate the system much beyond the original. The player will be able to use weapons up to a certain point, I'm not sure where that cut off point is at the moment, but I'll check it out. If you're carrying a bunch of equipment...it's not very likely that you're going to be able to stay afloat long enough to use anything if your feet can no longer touch the surface. For a person not carrying an arsenal, it wouldn't be a problem. But this guy is dressed in fairly restrictive clothing from head to foot. He needs all his resources geared towards swimming when he's completely underwater. If an FM author absolutely 'must' have it...they can find a way to put it in, but I don't think you'll see anything too outrageous supported natively in TDM.

I noticed it all the time I played the original games, although I always wondered if it's because of special programming or because my room is pitch black and I'm staring into a monitor with an extremely high contrast and low brightness (which by the way makes up the ideal monitor for playing thief). The glowing carryable mushrooms always were present and I'm planning on having them in my mission in TDM. The lantern sounds like a very good idea, but it should not be droppable, it should be gently placeable. And If the back is covered with leather, it should still allow an unobstructed way for the hot smoke and the leather should not dry out from excessive heat. Something like a carriage lantern with a 1/4" round wick made from brass with one side glass sounds most appropriate. I have a lantern collection, tell me if anybody needs pictures and i'll snap some. I wonder if you could eat those mushrooms after you're finished lighting the way with them.

Well i made that guess based on that it's nice and simple and with a little physics knowledge it would provide you with a method of determining how much light would be reaching an object. The line of sight test to check if the light can shine on you and a distance check to determine the brightness of the light at the distance it is away from you. Of course you'd probably have to do this multiple times for different sections of the body so the head can get a seperate lumination result from the foot. Also you'd need to factor in ambient lighting too. It seems that it is how it's done in your simple yet innacurate version, so i'm partially right, perhaps if multiple measurements were taken you could improve it's accuracy and reduce load. T1/T2 never had dynamic shadowing, there pretty much isn't any other way to determine how lit up something is in those engines. Also TDS had horrible framerates, using dynamic shadowing would fuck em over even more, though i guess it may be possible that they used the TDM accurate method (which could be why the framerates suck ass). I hope you noted that i asked sparhawk to provide more info dave, I was never sure about any of that nor did I say I was, so go read non existant meanings into someone elses post please.

The Optimal Way Post #1: "Hey guys, it would be more convenient if the arrow laid down flat, for mappers, you know? So it's in a natural state to use from the start." Post #2: "Good point, okay. There, it's changed and CVS'd." The TDM Way Posts #1 to n: ...

Dave the gameplay code would not be THAT processor intensive that it reduces frame rates a significant amount. dyanmic shadowing would be considered graphics code and not gameplay code, and the testing for how illuminated the player is in the world would simply be a line of sight and distance test just like in T1/T2. I'm assuming that this is also how it's done in tdm (paging dr sparhawk for more information)

well this is all good feedback, kinda what i was hoping to hear actually. I'm glad a lot of progress is being made. I really hope to see a gameplay video of all this new content soon, so far i'm more than impressed with TDM however.

@The1wayman: I used a picture of a gramophone (with perspective, well) for the texture. I will probably use several different textures instead! The current texture has also too many shiny parts. Unforeseen Consequences? A really strange project. I watched the foaming and roaming posts in the TTLG boards with a bit of astonishment. Most likely, I will create a TDM campaign with a collegue of mine, but we will not do the very same mistake the UC guys made. To whom can I send the finished model?

We already implemented a big Yellow Arrow pointing to the nearest loot location. This works fine already, so all those people who find it hard to get int Thief should have no problem with this aid. For hardcore ghosters the arrow can be toned down to a dark brown. After all, we want TDM to become as accessible as possible.

Well, those one shot missions tend to be based on the thief world playing as garret (and even if they aren't it's hard to dispell that notion). So in that respect looting makes sense and you could also implement rpg/skill rules in a big and popular setting (ie the main campaign). Where by people will pretty much do the same as with the thief one shot missions and base it on the most official and biggest world. But that said, you are a thief, and the game is entirely engineered around that, so any rpg/skill system would be oriented around that, and where rpgs tend to provide a variety of playstyles you would be limiting the player to a specific play style which would have the result of players choosing the thief stats. I'm an avid rpger, i'm currently in a d&d campaign that has 9 people including the dm (an adventurer army). But i don't like dnd rules system, sure it's the most developed but it is the least thought out and can be quite tricky. The latest editions are better, but it seems the whole system is oriented around getting people to buy books (which we don't really do ). The problem i have with fps games and sword/archery combat where your chances of hitting are determined by random chance is the whole visual aspect. you face the target and swing, the weapon looks completely like it's hitting, but then you hear some dodgy 'your weapon missed' noise. that said there are plenty of areas other than aiming where you can implement rpg style rules, like damage and different attack types. If I were to put rpg style things into TDM i would do it through items. You'd have daggers that would hit for more damage, or bows with a greater draw strength on them allowing more damage and range, or specially made boots that are quieter on hard surfaces like marble. Then offer them in the usual buy your items before mission style format (and if in a campaign make them permanent acquisitions). ohh yeah why don't we have any friggin crossbows?

I've been wondering. You know how in real life, windows act kind've like mirrors? -- when it's dark outside, yet light inside, you see your reflection in them, as well as other things inside. Do we want to try to achieve the same sort of effect in TDM? If so, it would make a lot of windows act like mirrors when the thief is inside a building, and the the player model is then more important. If you got really close to the window, only then would you be able to see outside very well. I think this would be cool. But would this be too big of hit to engine performance? Either weay, I foresee this effect happening in games some day soon, if it's not already out there in some. I've personally never seen it.

I never liked most RPGs based on the D & D rules, where combat is decided by a roll of the die or a random number generator, instead of player skill. The skill system in Deus Ex was different though, it didn't detract from the players skill in an annoying way. For example, if you picked up a sniper rifle, and were untrained, you could still use it, and if you were a skillful player your won skill would override the wobblyness of using a sniper rifle while untrained. The skill system in DE just made it easier to aim once you were trained. Anyway, what I really liked about Deus Ex was the multiple ways you could play the game, and the way choices made early in the game affected events much later in the game. That aspect can be easily implemented in TDM without any need for an RGP styled skill system, it is just up to mappers building non-linear missions with multiple play styles in mind.

Oh man do they. Springheel, you need to be doing much more art for TDM. Those really are lovely. Next screenshot update you have to have to put them in.

So much for Miami, Macsen!! Why'd you have to instigate another political debate So what about video games? Should we... nay, you... stop working on the Dark Mod for fear the project is apparently reflective of some sort of violent trend, to which you're contributing? I don't see how you could exclude video games from your worries of negative media. You are personally on the same level as some of this American media you keep talking about; yet you live in Germany. Yet who in their right mind would begin to be anti-German simply because you're working on a violent video game filled with KOs and medieival bloodshed? Don't judge a book by its cover. I've seen plenty of foreign films and television shows, including European ones, to know America's not the only country with whacked-out media. If I judged those countries by the twisted things seen in the media, I'm sure I'd be wrong. You think we're based primarily in violence, huh? Like we have nothing better to do? Wow. You're losing touch, man Stop watching American media, LOL. After being on TDM team for so long, I woud've thought you would've seen that on an individual level, everyone is very similar. Egos get in the way, debates are commonplace, put-downs happen regularly, etc. Yet we're from all across the globe. Go figure! Judging by how everyone acts, it seems like you would've thought we all lived in America!

Actually I was using Linux as my primary system before I started to work on TDM. I still have to get my soundcard working under Linux. That's the annoying thing about it.

Nice models? Do you play Red Orchestra? The RO team are WW2 fanatics and consequently RO has very detailed WW2 armour and weaponary. I think you'd like it. Check out the new Ostfront game and models. But you should ditch this WW2 lark and do some TDM modelling.

On a related, semi-important useful note, does D3 have in-editor scaling of models? I haven't found anything like it. I'm asking because it is in UnrealEd (OMG BLASPHEME). Change the renderscale and voila, varied guard sizes, so they don't all look like an army of tall clones. If it doesn't exist now, would such a property be easy enough to add? Quite useful, and not just for AI (e.g., also static meshes - larger/smaller window, fountain, supports and columns, etc). And either TDM has a lot of liars or this is one TALL ASS MOD TEAM.

I don't think you are a traitor. In truth I believe that once TDM comes out all the people who have been working with T3Ed with all its limitations will be all "Wow, THIS is the thing I've been waiting for." It's an excellent stop-gap for them (and me ), and will keep interest in Thief mapping going.

This is why TDM will be a great game and not the broing stuff that Oddity whishes it to be.

My vote is for no arrows of any kind of all, but I guess that is less popular than oDDity's Gel Arrow. I can't see why you are bagging the idea of Gel Arrows so much - it is at least plausible in RL. Though if you assume that water arrows don't really contain water, but a water-like liquid that has extreme fire retardent properties, then the difference is quite academic. I was always rather annoyed with the magic element in Thief, I would much prefer that TDM steered clear of magic, and instead focussed on science on invention (but then I am heavily biased to that sort of thing).

Yes, and this is why TDM will be half the game it could be.

Advancements in the TDM (it's not Thief) universe are made in the thechnological area, but not in the cooking area.

'Everywhere'? - what, you mean it covers every inch of the entire level in gelatine? It leaves very small amounts which dry almost instantly, as opposed to the wall, torch and floor below being soaked in water... Lol, a litle sac of geletine with a thin skin makes a 'big squelch/popping noise' It wouldn't even be audble. The water arrow would definitely make a hissing noise that would be heard several rooms away, even if you could get enough water into something that woud fit on the end of an arrow, which you couldn't. PLus there's the sound of the crystal shattering on top of that. You may as well just take a trumpet along with you and blow a fanfaire. Yes, in your opinon, but that doesn't mean much, does it? There's nothing positive about having to continually extinguish the same torch. THat's a lazy and skilless way to try to manage the players water arrow stock. A far better way is to make the target small and hard to hit. The arrow heads are water crystals you fool, they are the essence of magic. Magic may be commonplace in the Thief wolrd, it's yet to be established exactly how much magic there is in the TDM world. THat never worked for me anyway. It seems to me you could dip a broadhead or anything else in holy water and shoot it at a zombie. What's a water arrow got to do with it?

Points 1,2,4 and 5 are just arbitary properties that you could add to a foam, powder, anti-oxygen miasma arrow or whatever. We can just have this with water arrows, and what is wrong with magic? TDM world is full of magic. Point 3 makes it LESS stealthy since someone trying to light the torch with think "WTF is this residue?". There is no reason FOR having gel arrows. There is nothing in the definition or description which makes them superior and they just seem like silly "gloop" arrows to me. And aren't we having the water arrow make other things grow? - something which people will have to suspend disbelief with even more with gel arrows.

For the record, I wasn't kidding above. I thought it was well known, but maybe it's not so common knowledge - the clocks in T2 keep the time. You can watch the minute hand move very, very slowly. IIRC, it sets to a start time, or maybe even your system time, and then keeps it accurately. If you've been playing a mission 2.5 hours, it will have progressed 2.5 hours. Man, after all that, I sure hope it wasn't a dream... Anyway, that would be a calling down point. I would expect people to say, "oh yeah real good step backwards, TDM!" all sarcastic 'n hostile 'n stuff.