Ai ideas, planning and morale.

[Theothesnopp]

If this is posted in the wrong section please move it.

 

I was just playing Enclave (really recommend this game) and noticed a very cool ai behaviour, when in a sword duel, if you step back and stand still while in battle, the opponent stands still and observes you (for about 5 seconds top), as if hes planning his next move, would you then step forward or take out your bow, he would go to attack and or pursuit.

this really added a sense of life to the ai.

(is this already implented?)

 

Morale would also be a cool addition, lets say you are up against 3 opponents, and you attack one with suprise, that ai would then be wavering and in shock and perhaps perform worse in the fight (unless he is a diciplined fighter), if you then would take out two of them the third one would then be scared of and run (if he is of low rank). an observing officer would then shout something like "where are you running of too, stand and fight you useless coward" as running in the face of the enemy is a crime for a man of the law.

 

another question, is there some way of adding relations between ai, lets say a ai finds a dead ai, whom has good relations with the other ai, would the reaction be "AAAAAAAAAARRGH NOOOOOOOO NOT BENNY! :-(" instead of "we have a dead body over here :-l".

 

 

other things that would be cool (and wich have probably already been mentioned)

 

 

Guard dogs, house dogs (that would not engage in combat and would probably only raise a minor alarm if alerted, or just come up and sniff your leg), cats, caged birds etc.

 

others: Shields

 

i must also mention that the 1.08 update is fantastic. its still the same, but it feels so different, really great job guys (that goes for the ladies aswell).

[Springheel]

when in a sword duel, if you step back and stand still while in battle, the opponent stands still and observes you (for about 5 seconds top), as if hes planning his next move, would you then step forward or take out your bow, he would go to attack and or pursuit.

 

So if you step back the AI just stands there for five seconds? That doesn't sound like especially believable behaviour to me. Not only that, but it would give the player far too much time to use equipment. You could drop a mine in that amount of time, let alone a flashbomb.

 

 

lets say you are up against 3 opponents

 

 

If you're up against 3 opponents, you're dead.

 

(though AI will already start running away if you hurt them badly enough)

 

another question, is there some way of adding relations between ai, lets say a ai finds a dead ai, whom has good relations with the other ai, would the reaction be "AAAAAAAAAARRGH NOOOOOOOO NOT BENNY! :-(" instead of "we have a dead body over here :-l".

 

AI already have specific barks for when they find the body of someone on the same team.

 

i must also mention that the 1.08 update is fantastic. its still the same, but it feels so different, really great job guys (that goes for the ladies aswell).

 

Thanks!

[RPGista]

If you're up against 3 opponents, you're dead.

 

Ha! People who finished all the different challenges in the arena section of the tutorial map, raise your hands.

 

TDM's AI is amazing but I would also like to see some more organic behaviour in melee situations, and I like the idea of a certain enemy that is more cautious than another, or differences in morale.

 

I can also see some cool "fantasy action film" kind of scenario where you are running away from a bunch of guards, pick up a shield lying around or fixed on the wall, and fight your way with it, then ditch it (because it ruins your stealth gem and it wouldnt make sense to be sneaking around with one).

 

This kind of "improvised tools" logic is interesting to me, it is already part of TDM in the way you can manipulate objects, and use them to your advantage (create a distraction, cause even damage); thats how I see the character using different weapons, of all sorts, as long as it is part of the story/map: using a spear he found in the armoury to hit a guard from afar, or pick up a heavy axe and use it to ambush that fully armoured elite guard with a heavy fatal blow, then get rid of it and carry on with his mission. A mace could be wielded to break down a barred wooden door or a specific chest, etc. This is more akin to a mod inside TDM probably, with all the new hud animations and the whole process of balancing it (many people also still equate melee situations with insta-fail).

Edited October 30, 2012 by RPGista

[Theothesnopp]

Ofcourse if the ai would "See" you tinkering with any equipment he would go to attack and if you would turn your back, he would immediately start to pursue you. i must say though when in combat, the ai just leaps forward constantly as if he is trying to hug you or something, it just looks silly. this would ofcourse vary depending on ai skill. and for shields i was thinking for the guards, although i like RPGista's idea, it would be really cool to block a sword blow with a crate or any hard enough movable.

 

Ofcourse going up against 3 opponents is really hard, that is why if you manage to take 2 of them down, the last one should be feeling pretty damn intimidated.

just because its hard to go against more opponents does'nt mean that players will not try (and succeed). i know about the ai running when you hurt them, that was not the question, what i meant was that if you hurt the ai's friend enoough (w/o getting hurt yourselves, the ai would see the situation as hopeless and probably make a run for it)

 

Edit: the ai (when in planning mode) would go to attack when you have a smaller chance of blocking, i.e if you would turn around too look for an exit, etc.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Theothesnopp

[demagogue]

For the record, when I was planning out how to do a Security Levels feature (AI react differently to the player depending on the security level of the current zone or the AI's individual status), I was thinking about building in some similar features for morale. But it's harder to deal with than security levels. (Security levels are a simple conditional if the AI goes on alert or not. Morale assumes the AI goes on alert but behaves differently once in it, which has to get you into all their behavior on alert, fighting and running after the player and such.) It's also not quite as vital. Ai already run when very hurt, which is a kind of morale mechanic, and that works pretty well. You have to think of the added value for each little thing you have to spend a lot of time coding in (when that time could be spent making the security levels feature better).

[Theothesnopp]

For the record, when I was planning out how to do a Security Levels feature (AI react differently to the player depending on the security level of the current zone or the AI's individual status), I was thinking about building in some similar features for morale. But it's harder to deal with than security levels. (Security levels are a simple conditional if the AI goes on alert or not. Morale assumes the AI goes on alert but behaves differently once in it, which has to get you into all their behavior on alert, fighting and running after the player and such.) It's also not quite as vital. Ai already run when very hurt, which is a kind of morale mechanic, and that works pretty well. You have to think of the added value for each little thing you have to spend a lot of time coding in (when that time could be spent making the security levels feature better).

 

 

There is not much i can say in terms of scripting, (especially ai scripting) are you saying it would be impossible?

brb im in a hurry

[demagogue]

We have the source code, so nothing is impossible (that can be coded at all; and this definitely can). It's definitely possible. But some things are harder work than others, some things have a higher immediate payoff than others, and coding time is a scare resource that has to prioritize to get anything done at all. That said, if there is a coder that gets really passionate about it, it's more likely it'll get worked on. So it's good to give the best case for it if you're a fan, and maybe build some excitement or motivation for it, and talk about what it really adds to the game do you think.

 

Having AI notice & react to the situation around them does sound interesting, but how does it play out in a stealth game, what are the pros and cons to the gameplay, what are good ways it could work vs. unintended consequences or stuff to avoid, things like that.

[Sotha]

And the performance impact. Let's play that we have an elite-ubercoder, unlimited in proficiency and skill, who is so enthusiastic he adds zillion small life-like AI-things.

 

At some point everyone need to buy new computers as the new AI thinks almost like a real person with heuristic suspicion analysis and so forth, guzzling system resources. The line must be drawn somewhere and it has to add to the game.

[Springheel]

Ofcourse if the ai would "See" you tinkering with any equipment he would go to attack and if you would turn your back, he would immediately start to pursue you

 

So the AI stops if the player steps back, but they continue attacking the instant the player actually tries to do anything...what exactly is the point of that? We already have a mechanic where the AI are "flat-footed"...after you sucessfully parry or hit a gaurd he stays rooted in place (though he can still attack and defend) for a few seconds, during which the player can turn and try to run. That's a mechanic designed to reward good combat skills without forcing the player to kill...if you hit him, you get a window to run away.

 

it would be really cool to block a sword blow with a crate or any hard enough movable.

 

You already can.

 

what i meant was that if you hurt the ai's friend enoough (w/o getting hurt yourselves, the ai would see the situation as hopeless and probably make a run for it)

 

If you take on three guards and take out two without even getting hurt, then I submit that something is wrong with the combat system. Having trained guards run away because you're so badass is not really what TDM is all about.

[Tels]

So the AI stops if the player steps back, but they continue attacking the instant the player actually tries to do anything...what exactly is the point of that?

 

I think its to make them more human-like. Often these small things help a lot w/o wasting terrible resources. Other instances are like "breathing during sleep", "blinking", or even simple "look at a source of loud noise or sudden movement by turning your head".

 

This are all very human behaviours and make the AI distinct from a robot or wooden puppet. Right now, our combat still feels not quite natural, there is more of a robot-like behaviour, because although the animations are quite good, their sequence (e.g. how they are strung together) is too predictable.

 

A simple "AI pauses for 0.5 seconds and catches his breath" would go miles breaking the step-by-step combat. Yeah, it might give the player an advantage. But the player might also just stand dumbfounded and then get whacked because he was surprised a what happened. Making not everything "plannable" is sometimes harder.

[Springheel]

I agree that adding in some variety to AI behaviour during combat is a good thing, but having the AI stop attacking for 5 seconds every time the player backs up doesn't sound like it accomplishes that at all.

[RPGista]

Im sure it was a suggestion mostly aimed at simulating a "strategic aproach" by certain AI, as you see in a game like Severance:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZdP83kxT-U

 

Some enemies there will take their time, groups will circle you slowly, and while one attacks you, the other will try to hit you from the back, if you hit them hard they'll regroup and be cautious while aproaching, etc. Of course that was a melee oriented game (one of the best btw), not TDM's intention, but a couple of those features would add depth to it for sure (say, some AI will, instead of charging directly, aproach you cautiously, weapon ready). Nothing too fancy, just some added strategic depth.

 

A morale spawnarg would also add a bit more statistical variety - an AI might run after a single blow to the arm (some smalltime thug) while others will fight to the end, or till they are badly hurt (specially cool if there are flee points around).

 

There was some discussion about this here (for this post downwards): http://forums.thedar...post__p__293453

 

I also like the idea of assigning a "relation" spawnarg between two or more AI, so that if a lady discovers her husband's body lying around, she'll scream something more personal rather than a generic "we need a doctor" or "theres someone hurt". It is a bit like the code that limits greetings based on the other AI's class (guard, noble, etc).

 

PS: But yes, agree 100%, this is just making a case for the future, any coding efforts should go to crucial features first. The game is awesome as it is.

Edited October 30, 2012 by RPGista

[Theothesnopp]

RPGista explained it much better.

 

and springheel, dont take what i write too literal seeing as my english is limited, i see what you mean though, i dont want to see TDM turn into a hack and slash game, but if a player is skilled enough in using tdms combat system to be able to take out 2 out of 3 guards the player should then be rewarded, this is my opinion.

 

what i am trying to say is that TDM is in first hand a stealth game and should remain so, but i think the player should atleast have the choice too go on a bloody rampage (if she is skilled enough), and that there would atleast be some depth too it, and this without turning the game into dishonored (meaning combat should still be as difficult).

 

even though its hard to take on multiple enemies it should still be some reaction too it, there will always be players that will try too push the games limit to see what is possible.