Dark Mod Or T3ed?

[Bukary]

Hello Dark Modders!

 

Firstly, sorry for my English. I hope it is at least comprehensible.

 

Secondly, I would like to buld another FM (I've done some demos and FMs - Old Comrades, Old Debts among them - in the past) and right now I am wondering whether I should use T3Ed or Doom3 editor.

 

I've been using T3Ed for the last few weeks (since it was released) and, frankly, I do not like it. Or perhaps I should say: I like it less than I liked DromEd. That is why I started thinking about the Dark Mod.

 

I hope you will find some time to answer some of my basic questions about the toolset you're going to release.

 

1) I make my own textures. In T3Ed it is very easy to use them in the editor (one just needs to place pictures in proper folders)... if you owe 3ds max (each texture is some kind of "material" assigned in max). How is it in Radiant? What do I need to make custom textures for this editor? What file formats you use?

 

2) And what about custom meshes? Is it easy to place some standard format files (like .3ds) in the editor? Do I need some special tools / plug-ins to texture models for Radiant? I could ask the same about sounds...

 

3) When do you plan to release this toolset? Of course, I am not asking for precise date. And I know it is probably very difficult to tell, but... Will you be able to release it in the next year? Next two years?

 

4) I heard that there will be functional water and rope arrows in the editor. Is that correct? Do you plan to include ALL features (water, fire arrows, scounting orbs, mines etc.) that can be found in T1/2 and TDS? If not, what features are out (I guess climbing gloves are out)?

 

5) I guess there are some DromEders and users of T3Ed among your team members. Could you tell me if Radiant is more or less difficult to use than T3Ed / DromEd. I was able to learn Dromed quite well. Do you think I'll be able to learn Radiant?

 

6) Is Radiant at least as "flexible" as DromEd? Will I be able to create - for example - new arrow types, new AIs with specific behavior, objects interaction (making one object of few gathered parts), new scripts that allow some puzzles (the simplest one: pressing some buttons in proper order makes the door open) etc? And what about objectives? Can "anything" be an objective (like in TDS)?

 

7) Will there be such sound propagation as in DromEd or TDS?

 

8) Will I be able to create levels as big as the ones from original Thiefs that look and run well on standard computers (512 RAM, Radeon 9800 etc.)?

 

Thanks in advance!

[Macsen]

right now I am wondering whether I should use T3Ed or Doom3 editor.

You won't get an unbiased answer to that question here, but I'm sure someone who knows their stuff will be over soon to answer your other questions.

[Bukary]

You won't get an unbiased answer to that question here, but I'm sure someone who knows their stuff will be over soon to answer your other questions.

You are right. That's why I asked those other questions...

 

Sorry if those questions seem stupid or obvious to someone. I was not following Dark Mod developement closely, therefore I don't know about such basic things like sound propagation, new weapons etc.

[OrbWeaver]

I hope you will find some time to answer some of my basic questions about the toolset you're going to release.

 

...

 

Thanks in advance!

To some of your questions:

 

1 & 2) Importing textures into Doom 3 is creating some TGA images and putting them in a folder, with a text file to describe all their parameters. Much easier than T3Ed and you do not need any external software (other than to create the TGAs). Models are similarly easy, dump them in a folder using an open format (ASE or LWO), which you can export to from loads of free and commercial applications.

 

5) I never liked Dromed, but I did like T3Ed (in terms of the actual editor interface). Radiant is probably somwhere in between, it is not quite as nice as UnrealEd but it gets the job done. One thing you have to get used to with Doom 3 is the different workflow for creating levels - there are no subtractive brushes, everything is additive, which takes some adjustment if you come from an Unreal/Thief editing background.

 

8) Yes. Doom 3 can handle much more than Dromed. On my Radeon 9800 XT I can have a scene with upwards of 150k polys with dynamic shadows and it still runs at 1280x1024 at 25 fps.

 

I can't answer your other questions as I am not a Dark Mod developer, however in general the Doom 3 engine kicks serious ass compared to the Thief engines.

 

(BTW your English is indistinguishable from most native speakers).

Edited June 4, 2005 by OrbWeaver

[Springheel]

3) When do you plan to release this toolset? Of course, I am not asking for precise date. And I know it is probably very difficult to tell, but... Will you be able to release it in the next year? Next two years?

 

We are aiming to have our initial release in about a year, with most things functional but maybe not prettied up yet. But you can never tell.

 

4) I heard that there will be functional water and rope arrows in the editor. Is that correct? Do you plan to include ALL features (water, fire arrows, scounting orbs, mines etc.) that can be found in T1/2 and TDS? If not, what features are out (I guess climbing gloves are out)?

 

Yes. Functional water has already been done for other D3 mods and the creator has actually signed on with us to help us get it working the way we want it. Rope arrows are about mid-way through development right now. We'll have most of the basic T2 equipment (or a viable alternative), but scouting orbs will be out, along with some of the potions (invisibility).

[Fingernail]

There is no real restriction on level size, aside from the fact that the larger the level = more loading time, more RAM usage. However, D3 splits all the areas up and uses portals and scissoring to decide which geometry to think about, so you can have one complex view just around the corner from another and there wouldn't be any performance impact. The poly-pushing power is quite immense. You do have to be careful with the number of lights on each surface, however.

 

I find Radiant a lot quicker and certainly it was easier to learn than DromEd - the great thing is you have a realtime preview with no compilation time, and you can compile and be walking around your map in literally seconds.

 

Sound propagation is just being designed and implemented right now - we already have physically correct distance falloff and AI awareness, but the actual pathfinding of sounds according to a database is being worked out right at the moment.

 

As to a release - well, you can start right now if you like on level geometry, textures and models etc., but there are major features still missing. The addition of these features would not impact on the geometry you had already built, so you woulnd't lose any work that way. A proper beta-testing public release (with all the basics of stealth/Thief-style gameplay working) could come as early as a year to 18 months from now, with a bit of luck. A "fully featured" release (ie. with everything we have planned) could take as long as another two years, with tweaking and bug fixes.

 

Water already works in D3 and will be added in to the mod soon; there is a water physics mod and a reflection/fresnel effect shader created by some members of the community that pretty accuractely puts in water with buoancy and swimming, and looks nice too.

 

Rope arrows have pretty much been designed and worked out - they're just waiting final coding and testing. Fire arrows are also in. Scouting orbs should be a very easy feature to add. I can't think of anything that could be considered "vital" that will be left out. Certainly we're focusing on the vital bits and the hard bits at the moment - easy stuff like health potions and mines, which could be formed from existing D3 weapons/items aren't really in yet - more important ATM is getting the inventory system to work so these items can be cycled, stored and used.

 

Scripting is, depending on how you look at it, either more complex or easier than DromEd/Dark Engine "scripting". It's certainly more powerful. It consists of text files and uses a C++-like language which is used to manipulate objects, set timers, pretty much do anything you want - it's so powerful that almost all of the AI decisions are handled through complex scripts in D3. So anything could be an objective - the objective could be to push a box, to alert an AI, to jump a certain height! Literally any entity can be manipulated through scripting.

[SneaksieDave]

For what hasn't already been said, here's an attempt at being unbiased:

 

- DromEd is far closer to T3Ed in both interface and actual map design than DoomEd. The main and biggest difference from that lies in Unreal-based games being built up by subtracting from a positive (or solid) space, while D3-based games are built up by adding to negative (or empty) space. One consequence of that, for instance, is that when using a subtractive brush in an Unreal map, you can essentially move a hole around, just the same way you can move a wall or door around. There's no comparable action in D3, as a subtractive brush doesn't really exist (my only real complaint).

 

- You can do your own textures, models, sounds, etc., with little difficulty in D3, so customization will be no problem (less of a problem than it is for T3Ed, that's for sure).

 

My "unbiased" opinion would be "both" (more specifically, T3Ed now and TDM in the future) - since IMO more Thief is better. But, since you've already stated you don't care for T3Ed, and TDM is coming, get yerself some D3, bud! There's nothing stopping you from beginning construction in DoomEd... right now!

 

[Bukary]

Thank you all for quick answers!

 

I'll probably build FM for the next Komag contest. If I don't like the effects of my work, I'll certainly go for DoomEd.

 

How do I get DoomEd (present DarkMod toolset)? Can it be given to someone like me? Should I present some samples of my DromEd / T3Ed work? Should I build something in Radiant?

[god_is_my_goldfish]

I'm not sure if this is critical to your decision, but we are also planning to include some new features, such as object manipulation and a greater use of physics in the game world than d3 or t3 ever had.

[Bukary]

I'm not sure if this is critical to your decision, but we are also planning to include some new features, such as object manipulation and a greater use of physics in the game world than d3 or t3 ever had.

What do you mean by 'object manipulation'?

 

Greater use of physics than T3 had? Wonderful!

[Fingernail]

You will be able to pick up basically any object and move it around, or juggle it by rotating it, carefully place it, throw it, and even arm yourself with certain weapons and objects, for instance use an object as a shield against arrows or swords!

[Bukary]

You will be able to pick up basically any object and move it around, or juggle it by rotating it, carefully place it, throw it, and even arm yourself with certain weapons and objects, for instance use an object as a shield against arrows or swords!

Sounds great!

 

I was reading some threads in this forum. If you implement half of the things you're talking about, this mod will be incredible...

[Fingernail]

THE DARK MOD

 

Where hype meets reality

[Renzatic]

How do I get DoomEd (present DarkMod toolset)? Can it be given to someone like me? Should I present some samples of my DromEd / T3Ed work? Should I build something in Radiant?

Yeah, I've been wanting an experienced Dromeder to join up with the rest of the beta mappers. If you wanna come along you're more than welcome.

[Bukary]

Yeah, I've been wanting an experienced Dromeder to join up with the rest of the beta mappers. If you wanna come along you're more than welcome.

Thank you.

 

I'll wait another few weeks. I don't want to get the toolset from you and... quit.

 

If I find T3Ed useless and Komag's contest will not show that TDS editor might be powerful (and suitable for my needs) tool, I'll throw T3Ed out of the window and join you in the quest for real Thief experience.

 

There's only one thing that bothers me. I've never worked with the editor where one needs to add brushes to the "empty" world. I might find it very difficult.

 

BTW, how big (how many megs) is the toolset right now?

[Renzatic]

BTW, how big (how many megs) is the toolset right now?

Unzipped it's about 550-600 meg or so. Could be a hefty download if you're on 56k.

[John D.]

Join the team Bukary! I'm serious, a disaster with my main system is what has shut me out of the loop for now, but I can tell you I was very impressed with the small look around I got a chance to see. I have the T3d editor on a disk, but after seeing the potential of this mod, it will stay there! Until I get a Doom 3 playable system, I guess I'll be using Dromed again for now.