Farrell Anims

[New Horizon]

Yes, SZ figured out how to make the model lean at the waist using the SDK, since we didn't have an animation at the time. The point is that it looks just like the "quick peek" animation that some are arguing for, but it really doesn't go far enough out (unless you think the currently ingame leaning is perfect).

 

Definately not, it's useless. We'll get odds animations ingame and see how they look.

[pakmannen]

I thought the animation and what you actually see will be different anyway? That they wouldn't be linked like in T3? Then why not simply use Sz's code? It would probably work for all cases, walk-lean, crouch-lean creep-lean creep-crouch-lean etc etc.

[Domarius]

When the player sees their shadow creeping, or themselves in a mirror briefly as they walk past, that's enough.

 

As if we need to care about them scrutinizing every combination of actions in front of a mirror just to find flaws. That's not part of the game.

[Ishtvan]

I thought the animation and what you actually see will be different anyway? That they wouldn't be linked like in T3? Then why not simply use Sz's code? It would probably work for all cases, walk-lean, crouch-lean creep-lean creep-crouch-lean etc etc.

 

It is true that the camera can be decoupled from the actual lean, but remember that the playermodel itself is what determines if you can get shot or if the AI can see you. If your camera could lean out farther than the model could, you could effectively lean out without fear of being seen or shot at. Even worse, you could lean and fire the bow from the leaned camera position, while the actual model would still be behind the wall because it didn't move enough. So you could shoot at people who had no way of shooting you back.

[New Horizon]

It seems like we're caught in a foggy area between body awareness and traditional first person. Really, we're going to have a hybrid of first person and a model. Ideally, it might be wise to go completely one way, or the other.

 

I see two options.

 

 

1. See if Doom 3 can function as a 'true' first person system and have the player model completely removed. I think footsteps are tied into the model somehow as well. This could mean having to untangle a lot of things. That would also mean...screw reflections and shadows.

 

2. We could go the rest of the way and create a body awareness system similar to TDS, but better. It would make some things easier, and some things a little more tricky. We wouldn't need to match animations with the player arms, whatever the model did...would be all we needed.

 

It just seems that we really need to simplify this...one way, or the other. Trying to patch these two systems together, is just rather time consuming. I know the instant response is going to be...no, it sucked in TDS. Well, it doesn't have to suck if the animations are done well. We've seen that the lean animation can be done in such a way that the player won't fall off a ledge. We don't have to go all the way and have rope climbing animations, or ladder animations if we don't want to.

 

Or, we can risk trying to gut the whole player model system right out of the game and make it traditional. It would save us a ton of work and make things much easier. That way, we could focus more on the gameplay.

[Springheel]

We debated body awareness ages ago.

 

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...1&st=&p=entry

The discussion

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...1&st=&p=entry

Where it was voted down

 

I don't see that anything new has come up since...these are all the same issues we debated back then.

[SneaksieDave]

I don't see "perfect" animations as being such a big priority. Even Doom3 is not true to mirrors. Go stand in a bathroom and change weapons. The mirror is not reflecting what you see as the screen animation of course, it is reflecting the true body model animation... and they don't match up all that well.

 

So what. If the animations are handled in an efficient way (as Isht was mentioning, IIRC) - the legs are separate from the torso, which is separate from the head, and the arms, etc. - then there would only have to be a "holding the bow" anim for the arms, which could be applied to any motion or stance. To otherwise have to make specialized animations for every possible move is an insane amount of work. I don't know if this ability is already in the game (I assume it is, because of the leaning SZ made, because of the IK on the legs, etc), but it ultimately allows for a lot more flexibility and power and saves tons of animation work.

 

It doesn't have to be perfect. Even the first person anims in T3 were shitty - reduced in quality (for some reason, I don't know) from the true third person ones. And going back to true floating head style with no reflection, no shadow, etc., is not a good option IMO. Then again I'm a fan of having a body (if done well). Having a body doesn't necessarily mean having crap suck-in animations. But that's a somewhat different topic.

[Ishtvan]

I don't see any problem with the current system. It's not really a hybrid of first person and body awareness. It's still all first person. The body still needs some collision model to interact with the environment though; every game needs that regardless of whether the camera is free or not. The lean animation controls the collision model used when people shoot at you (since D3 uses the actual model for projectile collisions), so it just has to extend far enough so that the head location matches the position of the camera.

[New Horizon]

We debated body awareness ages ago.

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...1&st=&p=entry

The discussion

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?showt...1&st=&p=entry

Where it was voted down

 

I don't see that anything new has come up since...these are all the same issues we debated back then.

 

I definately haven't forgotten that we debated it, but as someone said at another point...sometimes we may have to go back and re-evaluate some decisions. I think we just have a bad taste in our mouths from the T3 attempt at having body awareness do everything. I'm just bringing it up again as a way to simplify this process. Since I'm not an animator, coder, or anything else particularly useful to this type of work...I can only make some blind stabs in the dark as to what our options might be.

 

I guess my point is, all of these animations are going to be made for the purpose of reflections...and maybe player shadow, if it's turned on. People will rarely see the animations. So, I'm just saything that perhaps we should discuss taking a step back to a traditional first person system, or push things ahead a notch and try out body awareness. The model is already there and the camera semi-uses it for the eye height anyway. We don't have to use crappy suck in animations for ladders...so what if the feet don't hit the steps perfectly. Same with climbing a rope, we just have to set the arm animations at a certain length and then position the player back at a set distance...just like we do now.

 

At any rate, I'm not trying to get a raging debate going. I just think we should perhaps review our options, while we're still at an early stage.

[Ishtvan]

Btw, I just tested it out in T2, and you cannot remain leaned while moving forward or back. You can only lean and move at the same time when strafing side to side, and I'm not even sure if that was intended.

[Domarius]

Good enough reason not to allow it then IMO. Personally I never even noticed if you could or not.

[sparhawk]

OK. You convinced me. Not really a big problem if the keyhandler works reliably.

[Darkness_Falls]

Btw, I just tested it out in T2, and you cannot remain leaned while moving forward or back. You can only lean and move at the same time when strafing side to side, and I'm not even sure if that was intended.

Sorry, but I'm afraid you can. I tested it before I posted my post a day or two ago. Not sure if it matters the order in which you hit the keys or not. For example, try hitting the leaning key first then moving forward second. If that doesn't work, then try moving first then leaning second. Trust me, you can lean while moving; I use it sometimes.

[New Horizon]

Sorry, but I'm afraid you can. I tested it before I posted my post a day or two ago. Not sure if it matters the order in which you hit the keys or not. For example, try hitting the leaning key first then moving forward second. If that doesn't work, then try moving first then leaning second. Trust me, you can lean while moving; I use it sometimes.

 

For simplicity, I think it's something we should drop.

[sparhawk]

Sorry, but I'm afraid you can. I tested it before I posted my post a day or two ago. Not sure if it matters the order in which you hit the keys or not. For example, try hitting the leaning key first then moving forward second. If that doesn't work, then try moving first then leaning second. Trust me, you can lean while moving; I use it sometimes.

 

It might be the keyboard layout and the assignment. The keys on a keybard are assigned in a grid. If you happen to press keys simoultanously, which are on the same vertex, then the keyboard can not detect the keypress anymore. So it seems that you DF have the keys properly assigned, while Ishtvan may have a keycombination that will not work. This is keyboard dependent though, and some keyboards don't suffer from this problem.

 

You can easily verify this in an simple editor. Press two or three key and they should show up. For example on my keyboard when I perss and hold down A, D, H and B and then press additionally G it doesn't work, but when I press T instead it works.

[pakmannen]

We should at least allow strafing while leaning. I use that all the time. Otherwise you'd have to lean, lean back, adjust feet position, lean again etc etc.. That's just annoying.

[sparhawk]

Yep. That's why I want to support it.

[Springheel]

I guess my point is, all of these animations are going to be made for the purpose of reflections...and maybe player shadow, if it's turned on. People will rarely see the animations. So, I'm just saything that perhaps we should discuss taking a step back to a traditional first person system,

 

As I understand it, the only reason we need a model at all is for collisions. So the player model could be a block, if we wanted to be ridiculously abstract about it. If we did that, however, the reflection and shadow would be of a block. If reflections are going to be in the game, and the player shadow, then we should have a decent model with half-decent animations. Now, I have a feeling a lot of people won't use the player shadow (especially if AI can't detect it). And I suspect reflective surfaces will be pretty rare in most maps. So the question is, do we want to put lots of time into making really GOOD player animations? Or do we just want something good enough to do the job. I personally think the latter makes the most sense, especially since we have so many animations and so few animators.

 

The only reason I could see for making really polished player animations is 1. if they could be reused for AI thieves, or 2. if we wanted to use them for in-game cut scenes.

[sparhawk]

You forgot cutscenes as well. Obviously there the model will also be used.

[Springheel]

Lol. You need to read all the way to the end.

[Ishtvan]

Okay, I can lean and move forward/back in T2, but only if I first start moving forwad/back, and then lean. If I lean first and then try to move forward/back, it resets the lean before moving.

 

@DF: You really think that was what they intended, to allow lean and moving, but only if you start moving and then lean, not the other way around? Sounds more like something that slipped by, rather than an intended feature.

[pakmannen]

Okay, I can lean and move forward/back in T2, but only if I first start moving forwad/back, and then lean. If I lean first and then try to move forward/back, it resets the lean before moving.

 

@DF: You really think that was what they intended, to allow lean and moving, but only if you start moving and then lean, not the other way around? Sounds more like something that slipped by, rather than an intended feature.

I do think they made movement possible while leaning on purpose. Leaning would be very annoying if you couldn't move at the same time, to peak around corners, like me and spar said above.

[New Horizon]

I do think they made movement possible while leaning on purpose. Leaning would be very annoying if you couldn't move at the same time, to peak around corners, like me and spar said above.

 

Does it take that long to un-lean and move over to the side a little bit more though?

[Ishtvan]

Well, maybe straffe + leaning could be allowed for inching up on corners.

 

To add straffe + lean requires either new animations where a leaned player is sidestepping, for all possible permutations of standing/crouch + movement speeds, or we just ice-skate the leaned player along while playing footstep sounds at the right times in a dummy animation. Personally I wouldn't really mind the ice-skating solution.

 

Btw, we'll probably need a separate animation for crouch + lean, since this one doesn't lean as far to the side, so the playermodel shouldn't go as far to the side so that the collision calculations match the view.

[pakmannen]

So it isn't possible to separate the leaning animation from the walking animation with "channels" or whatever it was that you talked about earlier? Maybe I understood it wrong but wouldn't that mean that we could easily do all combinations of walking/creeping/crouching + leaning?