What Are You Planning For A First Tdm Fm?

[sparhawk]

You still didn't say where 'behind' is supposed to be. Projecting the back side to the front would probably only work in an area that is pretty uniform. You can't assume that an observer is always standing in the front.

[Cyberwolf]

Projecting the back side to the front would probably only work in an area that is pretty uniform. You can't assume that an observer is always standing in the front.

 

This is true, a suit with folds of fabric is a far more complex shape than, say a tank, which has far more simple geometry. Yes, perspective becomes a big issue, to the point where it would probably be impossible to create a perfect invisibility effect no matter how many cameras are used. A limitation of the camouflage might be that it is less effective in the middle of a room, where the number of angles the suit is viewable from increases. Against walls or in non-complicated environments the invisibility would be very good. Another fun limitation would be the complete ineffectiveness of the suit in mirror reflections.

[OrbWeaver]

You still didn't say where 'behind' is supposed to be. Projecting the back side to the front would probably only work in an area that is pretty uniform. You can't assume that an observer is always standing in the front.

 

Presumably in order to work properly it has to project an image from every side onto its opposite side. The whole surface would need to be made up of cameras and projection lenses interleaved with one another.

[Cyberwolf]

There is also the question of how to power something like this on a portable supply...This article has been wonderfully informative and imagination-inducing.

 

 

Also, here's a fun read on invisibility...I've skipped to the good part on page 2 click here

Edited February 28, 2006 by Cyberwolf

[Maximius]

You still didn't say where 'behind' is supposed to be. Projecting the back side to the front would probably only work in an area that is pretty uniform. You can't assume that an observer is always standing in the front.

 

 

IIRC, it could do front to back too at the same time, some of the lenses on the back take in images to project to the front of the suit, some emit images taken in from the front of the suit, same for the sides. The narrator said that it would not make the user invisible but would make them a heck of a lot harder to spot. This was about six years ago, maybe more, that I watched this show so my info is limited at best.

[Maximius]

Presumably in order to work properly it has to project an image from every side onto its opposite side. The whole surface would need to be made up of cameras and projection lenses interleaved with one another.

 

 

Bingo, see above.

[Cyberwolf]

It's not that you can't make it believable, but trying to explain it in any great detail often makes it less believable. Better to let people imagine how it work with their own knowledge of whatever emerging technology they think could power it.

 

with GITS, or even stuff like Asimov or star trek I can see getting away with just not explaining it, but since I'm trying to fit this into a more present day setting, I imagine that just not explaining it to some degree, or explaining it away by saying 'it just works,' might actually make the premise fall under cliche.

 

Having to fit the camouflage into existing technology presents the limitations that would make an interesting or fun game where strategy and skill would still be very much involved, rather than just walking around perfectly invisible everywhere all the time.

[sparhawk]

IIRC, it could do front to back too at the same time, some of the lenses on the back take in images to project to the front of the suit, some emit images taken in from the front of the suit, same for the sides. The narrator said that it would not make the user invisible but would make them a heck of a lot harder to spot. This was about six years ago, maybe more, that I watched this show so my info is limited at best.

 

Does nobody see the glaring problem with this?

 

OK. Lets assume we have a city as background surrounded by a lake on one side and a forrest on the other side. The observer stands such, that the suit is in the center with the city to his back and the lake to his right (as seen from the observer) and the forrest to his left.

 

Now, since the suit would project his background to the front the observer would see the city. Fine.

 

BUT! Now the observer moves over to the forrest. This means that the backside from the observers point of view would become the lake, the more he moves over. But what does he see? Along his way he would see the city all the time until he reaches the side of the suit. Assuming that the suit projects all sides to it's opposite side, this also doesn't help much, because then the observer would see some edge where the border of the backimage (the city) would align with the right image (the lake).

 

There is also the matter of the distance. Obviously the stuff that the observer would see depends strongly on the istance to the stui. So what projection should the suit use? An observer that is close by would see still the entire image of the city depending on the view angle the suit uses to project. So if the observer moves closer or goes away, he would always see the same image, because the suit obviously can not know what angle he must show to match the observers viewpoint. Even if it could make this, then we get another problem with two or more observers on different places and distances.

 

Maybe in real life the illusion is good enough to fool a casual observer, but as soon as the suit or the observer starts moving, the illusion must fall apart IMO.

[Cyberwolf]

That makes sense, Spar. The fact that the suit could be viewed from far more perspectives and distances than it could ever have cameras for, presents a severe limitation. This is part of the reason for the wired article suggesting convex nodes containing six cameras, pointing in several directions, instead of just 1 camera connected to 1 lcd node.

 

A way for someone wearing the suit to combat this difficulty might be that they would have to be constantly identifying targets that are capable of looking in the suit's direction (using some sort of targeting computer built inside a contact lens?). When a target is identified, based on the triangluation of the target's distance and perspective to the suit, the related cameras could fine-tune their positioning and focus, to perfectly camouflage the suit to that specific target.

 

If over three or four targets are looking towards the suit and they are all targeted, the suit might begin to have a hard time adjusting for all the possible perspectives, but it would at least provide stealth in limited situations.

Edited February 28, 2006 by Cyberwolf

[Ishtvan]

with GITS, or even stuff like Asimov or star trek I can see getting away with just not explaining it, but since I'm trying to fit this into a more present day setting, I imagine that just not explaining it to some degree, or explaining it away by saying 'it just works,' might actually make the premise fall under cliche.

 

All I'm saying is that if you try to go into too much detail when explaining it, at some point, you've either created a theoretical paper worthy of publication in Optics Letters, Science, Photonics Technology Letters, etc, or it's obvious to someone that it wouldn't actually work, and that breaks the immersion.

 

If you wanted it to work in 3d, Sparhawk is right that a 2d recreation of the intensity pattern on the opposite side is not going to work at any angle. Although fibers help a bit. Because the fiber output depends a lot on the angle you view the fiber, you would not see as much light from the ones that weren't pointing at you. Assuming the fiber outputs were normal to the surface everywhere, the angle dependence of the fiber outputs and inputs could act naturally to "select" which observer to fool, and send them the image of what's on the other side from that particular observer.

 

Still it's not really perfect. Input light would have to be waveguided by the fiber to actually be bent around, which means it has to get converted to the fiber modes, and at the output end of the fiber, those fiber modes would not evolve in space the same way as the actual input light field would. The far field of the fiber mode at the end is not the same as the far field of whatever light source you're trying to mimic.

 

I dunno, if I had to throw some buzzwords together, I'd say "smart pixels" that do "real time holography." Holograms can look correct from multiple angles. Smart pixel is a buzzword that in this case could mean integrated camera and projector in the same pixel of the suit. They would also probably need an integrated optical gyroscope or something to tell which way they're pointing as you move around in the suit.

 

Anyway, I'm imagining a suit where each frame, the camera portion of the pixels take a complete image of the background (like a spherical camera, although it would probably have to be a 3d image as well), then use a microprocessor to calculate a real-time hologram of that image, take into account the position of all the pixels, and recreate the required hologram from the transmitter portion of the pixels. Of course, those calculations for each frame would probably take a decent computer several minutes to do with existing technology, but increased processing power is not that hard to believe in the future.

[Gildoran]

@Sparhawk: As people have been saying, the purpose of the suit isn't to make you nearly invisible with correct perspective, it's to act as adaptable camoflage. Yes the image displayed at the person's sides will always be wrong, as will the images if you're looking downwards (say at a 45 degree angle) towards them, but as long as most of the colors generally match the environment very well, it'd be hard to spot somebody wearing such a suit if they were 100 meters away. Hey, if green-and-brown splotches of paint can work pretty well in a forest, imagine how well something that fine-tuned its colors to match its surroundings would work.

[Al3xand3r]

I read somewhere that the effect seen in the predator movie wasn't actually special effects but rather a real suit composed of many many little mirrors. It didn't actually project what was behind the character to the front of his suit but it was simply mirroring the environment. The army even contacted the movie producers for a possible practical implementation of it.

 

I have no idea if this is true but if you do a google search, while it's hard to actually find things related to that effect, you will sure end up coming accross a place mentioning this.

 

About scary FMs: You won't have to resort to D3 scare tactics as someone mentioned. Scary missions are all about sound and environment rather than enemies popping up suddenly behind you.

 

If you have Half-Life (the original, not the sequel) I recommend the fan mod Afraid of Monsters - http://www.freewebs.com/afraidofmonsters/ - Graphics and other tech aspects are obviously very very limited but the sound and visual style (not quality) more than make up for it and end up in some very creepy moments in just the first few levels that I've played. Don't judge it by the screenshots on the website, just play it.

[sparhawk]

Concerning scary missions. You can take a look at the Redwill Manor (I hope I speeled it right) created by Squill. This map is really good. It was done with the regular D3 assets (I'm not sure if he added his own textures or not) but this map is as Thiefy as it can get without actually creating Thief style stuff intentionaly. And it is scary like hell, without resorting to the cheap tricks of Doom3. I mean - how often can get jumped from behind before it becomes boring?

[Fingernail]

PAGAN FUCKING HOLOCAUST

I'm telling you it's where the money's at.

Of course, I've got to do lots of other stuff in RL first. I never told you guys here I think, but last week I beat the other string players and I'm gonna be on BBC2 in the live final of the Young Musician competition, first guitarist in over 20 years.

Oh yeah, it's in Gateshead at the Sage too. PAGING MACSEN.

[oDDity]

Cool, I'll watch that. When's it on?

I don't know how you play under those conditions, I'd be as nervous as hell playing live on television.

[OrbWeaver]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/youngmusician/competi...s_strings.shtml

 

Looks like May for the final (http://www.bbc.co.uk/youngmusician/competition/final.shtml).

[oDDity]

Lol, what age are you FIngernail? You look about 13 in that photo.

[Macsen]

I never told you guys here I think, but last week I beat the other string players and I'm gonna be on BBC2 in the live final of the Young Musician competition, first guitarist in over 20 years.

 

Oh yeah, it's in Gateshead at the Sage too. PAGING MACSEN.

OK Fing I'll be there. The Journal and Chronicle will cover it, so I'll probably be interviewing you.

 

(if those BBC hacks let me in of course)

[sparhawk]

Finger, if you are on TV interviewed then don't forget to say something like "DOWNLOAD THE DARK MOD!!!" And don't forget to mention the URL.

[New Horizon]

Finger, if you are on TV interviewed then don't forget to say something like "DOWNLOAD THE DARK MOD!!!" And don't forget to mention the URL.

 

To the general public, it will sound like he's promoting a cult. He'll be arrested.

[Macsen]

To the general public, it will sound like he's promoting a cult. He'll be arrested.

I've already got my headline:

 

BBC YOUNG MUSICIAN OF THE YEAR CALLS FOR 'PAGAN HOLOCAUST'

 

- Evil guitarist has links to dark internet cult

 

[Order of the Hammer Bureaucrat]

I've been reading a lot of articles lately from different sources that cover nanotechnology, and the research that is going into place to create little machines ... The crazy thing to me is that this is happening in real life. Predictions say that in 20-50 years this stuff will be mainstream.

 

The main idea at least is to have a sneaker based in present time but to provide that same sick, uncomfortable feeling you got with the world we live in, that you got after you watched the matrix...

 

I was into that whole nanotech thing, quite optimistic at the time. Didn't get into the nanotech research program because i'm not good at getting marks. It's mostly hype though. I've seen what the people are actually discovering, and it's about as hyped up as 1950's people saying we'll have flying cars and robots when all they did was invent the transistor.

 

And I didn't get no uncomfortable feeling you got with the world we live in after the matrix, I thought, so, there are people who share my opinions.

 

yeah i figured as much. really there is no hope for me ever getting it done unless there is a team backing the project. I can't do much beyond stories and concept art. I've got enough of a concept floating around in my head that it would make a fairly complete novel just standing by itself, maybe i'll go that route

 

My hunch tells me if I collaborate with you a cool thing will happen. I'm developing a huge city, with researched background historical information regarding politics, chemistry, sciences, discoveries, technologies, etc. I'm ok at setting the buildings, people, relationships, and situations, but i'm zero at tying it all together with a decent story. I hope you're the patient type though. because it'll take a little while before I get free time to continue work on it and start fleshing it out in TDM.

 

The Thief world is full of people who would like to make a really, really scary FM (myself included). Unfortunately I think it would exceedingly difficult to produce such a mission without resorting to cheap shocks and Doom 3-style scare tactics.

 

The classic example in my opinion is the Bloodstone Prison by Kung Fu Gecko, aka Gonchong. He is a true master.

 

I hate empty rooms and corridors where nothing much happens except to pass through so I try to pack in lots of interest everywhere the player goes.

 

I really loved Lampfire Hills when it came out, and it's still one of my favourites. Primarily because it's a little cramped.

 

Does nobody see the glaring problem with this?

 

I think we all see the problem with it. It's rather obvious.

 

@Sparhawk: As people have been saying, the purpose of the suit isn't to make you nearly invisible with correct perspective, it's to act as adaptable camoflage.

 

I agree, if brown green patches work, then this works better. especially in the dark. Imagine a real life situation, in the suburbs, far end of the house, away from the street lamp, near the chain link fence and the fern there is a crouching person with such camouflage. He is unnoticeable, although all the clothing does is transmit very approximately the shapes and colours behind him.

 

To the general public, it will sound like he's promoting a cult. He'll be arrested.

 

I AM A MEMBER OF THE DARKMOD CULT!

[Domarius]

Haha, the rumour was true - Fing is 17

[Ishtvan]

I was into that whole nanotech thing, quite optimistic at the time. Didn't get into the nanotech research program because i'm not good at getting marks. It's mostly hype though. I've seen what the people are actually discovering, and it's about as hyped up as 1950's people saying we'll have flying cars and robots when all they did was invent the transistor.

 

"Nanotech" is neither all hype nor as hot as the news would have you think. It's been advancing since about 1900 when metallurgists first started relating atomic structure to measurable properties and performance, and is still advancing steadily. The media just likes to grasp onto one thing and hype it as the next big thing, i.e., information tech, bio tech, now nano tech, which is a blanket term for many different disciplines. Then politicians fund a lot of grants for whatever the media is currently hyping and neglect other things, because they're stupid. In the background, actual science steadily marches on.

[Ombrenuit]

I've given it some thought, and now I think I might want to tackle a mission centered around the theme of an oriental-inspired "Opium Den" much like the ones that created a sort of esoteric charm across Britain at the start of the Victorian Era. The story revolving round that of enchantment, addiction, fantasy, dreams, and the like.