After Dm Is Done

[mike mayday]

Hi there.

The mod is still a WIP and I completely agree that the team should first try to recreate the original elements of the game. However I have some ideas, mostly cosmetic, that would be nice to mod in after it's finished. So please don't get mad at me for requesting unnecesary stuff, these are just my thoughts I'd like to share, especially that I've seen some people around eager to modify the engine further. If you have reasons why these should NOT be put in a game, do share, but please keep it civil (I've seen some bad fights about these around here D:).

 

1)More uses and varieties of elemental crystals. First off, a lot of people keep the cheapest crystals in their houses, and when Garret picked them up, he would automatically convert them into arrows. However, some of them could have better use if kept "unprocessed". For example...

The pagans modified the moss crystals to create vine crystals. How about light and darkness crystals then? The first could work as a flare, shining for a short time after you break them, the latter would shroud the PC with a cloud of darkness, making it easier to hide (of course a cloud of darkness standing in the middle of a bright room would still be suspicious).

 

2)Water. Why use up water crystals to douse torches, when you could just take a small pot, take some water from the fountain and pour it on the torch (or blood stain)? Now, this would make the game relatively easier, so to counterbalance it, the guards should start getting suspicious after they see -for example- the fifth doused torch. "Hmmm, somebody's been playin' with them torches here... better watch out for intruders!"

 

3)A small but nice addition would be to have used-up flash-bombs stay on the ground as useless pieces of mechanism that you can throw at unsuspecting opponents heads to knock them out (this should be fairly easy if they have no helmets).

 

4)I'd really hope for guards finding creeky doors opening just next to them to be rather strange. Also, oil to silence the creeky doors

 

5)Encumbrance. This has been discussed, I believe. In conjunction with a backpack or loot bag, should add a bit of challenge to the game.

 

6)Guards noticing their friends are missing should be pretty good too. Also, guards taking turns! Example: you've been observing Benny for quite a long time, he's just been standing there... so you sneak up behind him and suddenly another guard comes up to replace him! (noticing you of course). (Yeah the obvious answer would be to start by finding the guard chambers and knock out all those who aren't working right now).

 

7)Let me say it again, guards should notice it if too many lights start going out. BUT it would be nice to be able to hit the "powered" lamp with a blackjack and break it when nobody's around (there is a surprising amount of lamps with no swithces in Thief).

 

8)I must admit: I have never tried lockpicking in my life. I do know however, that it would be great to have traps sometimes... If the t3 system, it would work like a certain point (like the one that you can pick) and if you were nearing the trap-point, you could sense it, so you'd have to go around it. (Mmmm, hard to explain). However, I'm pretty sure real lockpicking looks nothing like in DS, so perhaps somebody could help out with this?

 

More when I have the time.

Edited June 27, 2006 by mike mayday

[sparhawk]

After DM is done, I will work on another game I already plan for.

[mike mayday]

Yeah, I was pretty sure you guys would not stand up to the challenge Chickens!

[sparhawk]

Actually we already discussed some of the features several montsh agon. Some of them are on the backburner for potential later implementation, and some of them were discarded.

[Gildoran]

1)More uses and varieties of elemental crystals. First off, a lot of people keep the cheapest crystals in their houses, and when Garret picked them up, he would automatically convert them into arrows. However, some of them could have better use if kept "unprocessed". For example...

The pagans modified the moss crystals to create vine crystals. How about light and darkness crystals then? The first could work as a flare, shining for a short time after you break them, the latter would shroud the PC with a cloud of darkness, making it easier to hide (of course a cloud of darkness standing in the middle of a bright room would still be suspicious).

I think that's an interesting idea, though to start with we probably won't implement anything like that. However, it seems like the sort of thing a specific map could easily add without SDK modification.

 

2)Water. Why use up water crystals to douse torches, when you could just take a small pot, take some water from the fountain and pour it on the torch (or blood stain)? Now, this would make the game relatively easier, so to counterbalance it, the guards should start getting suspicious after they see -for example- the fifth doused torch. "Hmmm, somebody's been playin' with them torches here... better watch out for intruders!"

I'd like to see that possible, though I don't know if others do. Again, a mapper could program that without SDK modifications.

 

3)A small but nice addition would be to have used-up flash-bombs stay on the ground as useless pieces of mechanism that you can throw at unsuspecting opponents heads to knock them out (this should be fairly easy if they have no helmets).

I wouldn't be surprised if we have flashbombs leave behind a shell, but throwing things at peoples heads to knock them out is more questionable. (it might be hard to balance) Even if we did implement that, you'd probably need to throw something really heavy, which I imagine spent flashbombs are not.

 

4)I'd really hope for guards finding creeky doors opening just next to them to be rather strange. Also, oil to silence the creeky doors

We're planning on having smarter AIs than Thief 2, so hopefully this shouldn't be a problem.

 

5)Encumbrance. This has been discussed, I believe. In conjunction with a backpack or loot bag, should add a bit of challenge to the game.

This isn't likely to be implemented in the official version of TDM.

 

6)Guards noticing their friends are missing should be pretty good too. Also, guards taking turns! Example: you've been observing Benny for quite a long time, he's just been standing there... so you sneak up behind him and suddenly another guard comes up to replace him! (noticing you of course). (Yeah the obvious answer would be to start by finding the guard chambers and knock out all those who aren't working right now).

I'd like this, and it wouldn't surprise me if we implemented code to allow mappers to this easily, though I can't make any promises.

 

7)Let me say it again, guards should notice it if too many lights start going out. BUT it would be nice to be able to hit the "powered" lamp with a blackjack and break it when nobody's around (there is a surprising amount of lamps with no swithces in Thief).

Although there's nothing to force a mapper to abide by it, the suggested TDM standard will be the same as Thief: Torches are dousable, but electric lights cannot be broken. The reason for this standard is to prevent the player from making the level completely pitch black.

[sparhawk]

I'd like to see that possible, though I don't know if others do. Again, a mapper could program that without SDK modifications.

 

Using the already implemented Stim/Response system, you can easily do that. In fact this is the same fucntionality like a water arrow has, so you just treat the bowl the same way as a water arrow and it's done. You might add special scripts to support refilling the bowl or flask with water from a fountain, but this would also already be possible with the SR system. You only need a mapper to provide the fountain.

 

This isn't likely to be implemented in the official version of TDM.

 

Nope. Nobody likes it.

 

I'd like this, and it wouldn't surprise me if we implemented code to allow mappers to this easily, though I can't make any promises.

 

Although there's nothing to force a mapper to abide by it, the suggested TDM standard will be the same as Thief: Torches are dousable, but electric lights cannot be broken. The reason for this standard is to prevent the player from making the level completely pitch black.

 

Not really. The reason is simply, that it would be pretty unbalanced to have only dousable lights. The mapper is responsible for providing appropriate lighting, and if he allows for a pitch black level, it's up to him.

[Arumakani]

How would you see and do stuff in a pitch black level?

[Gildoran]

As for the encumbrance, I'd like to see that too, and I'll try to set up the inventory code so that a mapper can implement it with mere scripting.

 

As for the level being pitch black, I suppose I should have been more clear that I was against the level being pitch black not for player navigation reasons, but so that it's not too easy to sneak around guards. (admittedly, this is the mapper's problem and not ours, but if we suggest the unbreakable light standard, it makes it easier for them to achieve)

 

@Arumakani: The mapper will be able to provide the player with a portable lightsource. (likely a lantern)

[oDDity]

All these ideas and a thousand more have been proposed, discussed and put on the backburner years ago, when we first started. We were coming up with 50 cool ideas a day, until we eventually had to tell ourselves to shut up and lock the ideas forum, because we spent more time arguing over all these new ideas than anything esle, and realised that we didn't have time to put in 90% of them anyway.

[Arumakani]

@ Gildoran Thanks man.

 

Wit regards to the lights. In SPlinter Cell they have lights with gauze over them to stop them being shot out. Is there any way of implementing lights that can and those that can't be. Say like out in the streets and in normal houses they can be knocked out, but say in a castle or mansion with a lot of loot they can't be knocked out?

Edited June 27, 2006 by Arumakani

[sparhawk]

How would you see and do stuff in a pitch black level?

 

By using a torch?

[Arumakani]

By using a torch?

 

I know that. I didn't realise this was going to be implemented in. Also it would give your position away, if you were trying to be stealthy.

[sparhawk]

Well, there are pros and cons. It's up to you to decide what you use.

[mike mayday]

Ooooh, ok, Oddity, I didn't mean to detract you guys from the job:) I guess I'll just wait for the official release and see what pops up.

[Komag]

8)I must admit: I have never tried lockpicking in my life. I do know however, that it would be great to have traps sometimes... If the t3 system, it would work like a certain point (like the one that you can pick) and if you were nearing the trap-point, you could sense it, so you'd have to go around it. (Mmmm, hard to explain). However, I'm pretty sure real lockpicking looks nothing like in DS, so perhaps somebody could help out with this?

 

I've done some lockpicking, but nothing medieval, and I know that locks back then were completely different from typical pin/tumbler locks of today

[mike mayday]

Hey, one request about keys: I've just replayed the Ramirez mission (from the demo, I don't have my game CDs with me here), and I found it weird that Garret could automatically identify keys (I entered through the second floor and found the basement key in a chest, how the hell did he know it's the basement key?). In some situations it's ok- when Garret already knows that a certain key will be somwhere. But otherwise, could we get key-identifying through succesful use of them? So that the key is only labeled as "basement" after I open the basement door with it (or after I read a note about it).

 

Also, GOD I HOPE ther will be some unpickable locks. With the Inventor's Guild around, it'd be hard to believe that even the most expansive locks are pickable.

 

BTW, did you know you can get to the Thieves' Highway in the Assasins mission?

Edited June 27, 2006 by mike mayday

[Gildoran]

I have no idea if we'll being doing that with the keys (though that's the sort of thing I'd like to do), but I'll offer my usual reponse to your posts: You should be capable of implementing that in your own maps without much trouble.

 

I'm sure there will be unpickable locks.

 

I didn't know about being able to access the Thieve's Highway in Assassins... I'm assuming you're refering to a different Thieves Highway than The Life of the Party? Anyway, how did you do that? I'd love to try sometime.

[mike mayday]

Took me quite some time to figure... my true thieving potential developed only in the late Thief2 missions, in DS there were very few opportunties to find secret high-passages (ones that were not meant to be discovered by the player). And I never got back to T1 somehow, now I'm gonna rerun the whole trilogy, looking for stuff such as this:

 

In "Assassins" the easy way to get to the rooftops is finding wooden shutters high above, shooting a rope arrow in it, climbing high and jumping to the roof on the other side of the street. You get to see alllll the stars (unfortunately). I think this should work in other, similiar city-missions.

Edited June 28, 2006 by mike mayday

[slavatrumpevitch]

Why was Komag picking locks?

[mike mayday]

Because it's... fun?

[Komag]

Just a hobby. I ordered a simple set of lockpicks from http://www.southord.com/index.htm last year

 

I can pick some simple locks, but normal "front door" types have stumped me. I can pick the lock on my desk at work, a few cabinets in the office, a couple simple locks I have at home, etc. I have some other locks I've never gotten, and I've never gotten the lock on our apartment door yet.

[Dram]

It's incredibly fun to pick locks hehe. You can't buy lockpicks here in Au though, so I had to make my own. Each took friggin 3 hours.

[OrbWeaver]

I can pick some simple locks, but normal "front door" types have stumped me. I can pick the lock on my desk at work, a few cabinets in the office, a couple simple locks I have at home, etc. I have some other locks I've never gotten, and I've never gotten the lock on our apartment door yet.

 

Lever locks are exceedingly difficult to pick, which is why (at least in the UK) having a 5-lever lock is a prerequisite for home insurance.

[Schatten]

Unfortunately, almost no thief bothers with picking a lock anymore - you're lucky if they use a crowbar, and aren't driving a truck through your doors.

[bob_arctor]

Yeah. They don't do ghosting any more. Although once I was burgled and found my fireplace was really damp, and my floorboards were covered in moss.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Lies.

Edited June 29, 2006 by bob_arctor